General Marvel Legends

Its funny - I know we have some huge Iron Man stans on this site - but its a character I've never vibed with. Like it was always cool Stark gave his mansion and butler to the Avengers but I've always liked the Avengers better when Stark wasn't in the line up.

And I never saw Iron Man as central to the Marvel Universe - but he moved to the center because the MCU needed a linch-pin and Marvel had sold the rights to all of its other major characters to other studios.

And I'll be honest I'm Iron Manned out in Legends.
 
PantherCult said:
And I'll be honest I'm Iron Manned out in Legends.
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SAME. So tired of this character at this point - can we give that slot of new sculpting to other characters for at least a year. I already have three admittedly beautiful IM sculpts that have no home on my shelves because I already have beautiful IMs on those shelves.
 
PantherCult said:
Its funny - I know we have some huge Iron Man stans on this site - but its a character I've never vibed with.
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And I’m the other way: I vibed with Iron Man *hard* as a child and adolescent, and as an adult have felt completely betrayed by the direction that the character has been forced into. I’d probably have said Iron Man was my favorite (mainstream) Avenger in the 80s and 90s. Now? He’s by FAR my least favorite character in an entire movie franchise, and one of my most disliked major characters in comics in general.

I know my ire can come off as curmudgeonly or even perhaps performative, but it comes from a place of real pain. It hurts me a lot to see what has happened to Iron Man, and the “old” Iron Man really would have helped me a lot through some personal struggles I went through in the 2010s. I fucking miss him.
 
Iron Man is what I call a "forever character". He was there when I started reading comics all those decades ago and he's still here. He was created by Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Don Heck in 1962. There are reasons why he's had action figures, an animated series and movies and is still being published in the comics.

Tony Stark was a founding member of the Avengers. He let the group use his Father's mansion, the house he grew up in, as their headquarters. He designed and built the quinjets and their submarine. He basically funded their whole operation. After they found Cap in the ice, Steve became their leader and figurehead but without Iron Man, there most likely would be no Avengers.

Whenever I think of the Avengers, I always think of Captain America, Thor and Iron Man. They are as linked with that team as Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are to the Justice League. In other words, in my mind, Steve, Thor and Tony are Marvel's trinity.

Has Tony made mistakes? Of course he has. He has big time Daddy issues, like a lot of Marvel characters. He's battled alcoholism. He started the Illuminati (Boy, did that bite him in the ass) and he was on the wrong side in the Civil War. Yes, he's made mistakes. You know what that makes him? Human. That's the thing about Stan Lee created characters. He wanted them to be human. I love DC as much as anyone I know, but those characters can sometimes be hard to relate to. They're basically Gods. Stan wanted Marvel's characters to be the kind that young readers could identify with. They had quirks. They had foibles. They could be eccentric. And it worked. Boy did it work. Marvel hasn't been the number one publisher of comics consistently for the past 50 something years for no reason.

So yes, PC. I hate to disagree with you again, buddy, but Iron Man is very much central to the Marvel Universe. He's been right there for all the events. From the Kree Skrull War to Contest of Champions to Secret Wars all the way up through One World Under Doom. He's had a series that's lasted over 600 issues with no signs of stopping. I know you see it differently than I do though, and that's perfectly fine.
 
SDcomics said:
You know what that makes him? Human.
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Totally agree with this, as a larger “this is a a good thing” with characters in general, although I’ve never had any trouble relating to DC characters.

My issues with how Iron Man is currently represented in pop culture have nothing to do with relative humanity, but rather that he is current framed as a human I *cannot* relate to, except in a “oof, if any of these incredibly negative traits I’m seeing displayed here ever surface in me, I need to do everything in my power to deal with that shit and not inflict it on others like this character does” kind of way.

My memories of the “mouthy, arrogant, asshole” stock character in Marvel comics teams growing up was that while “that character” (and I certainly don’t remember it being Iron Man in the Avengers, more early Hawkeye or Quicksilver or such) was usually present, “that character”’s behavior was identified and shouted down in- and out-of-“universe” as asshole behavior, and frequently “that character”’s growth over time was measured by them learning to stop being so much of an abusive prick and learning to work well with others. I *like* that kind of arc, and appreciate it in characters like Wolverine and Han Solo.

Seems like “modern” Iron Man has had the *opposite* arc, both becoming *more* of an unlikeable bully and even a fascist-leaning authoritarian over time, AND ALSO with his behavior and overall “vibe” being deliberately marketed as “THEE cool guy and MAIN CHARACTER” behavior rather than “resident team jackass with a lot to learn” behavior a la DC’s Guy Gardner.

He’s absolutely central to Marvel and the Avengers, in any age. I’m just bummed that the character as I knew him has been fundamentally replaced by a sneering narcissist who is *anything* but aspirational, and I’m *more* bummed that so many younger (than me) men I’ve encountered in the last 15-20 years find him so “cool” and quotable. Maybe I’m just an old romantic, but I do think heroes should be more than just a mirror of our worst qualities, lionized. Modern Tony would have been sitting in the front row at the 2025 presidential inauguration ceremony, and what makes me sadder than that is that a lot of “fans” would have cheered that. It depresses the hell out of me that one of my favorite childhood characters has become a character template for the worst real-life people I can think of. I don’t think Iron Man’s original creators would be proud of that, and if they were that would make me saddest of all.
 
CTV said:
Agree, but I'm not a big fan of the super rich white billionaire buys his way into superheroics trope. Batman works (for me) because Batman is clearly nuts. Lex Luthor feels way more realistic than Tony Stark, who gets played too straight as being A Super Cool Guy.
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You know it's funny because we used to have the "Is Batman nuts" debate a lot at comic con back in the 80's when Frank Miller wrote and drew the Dark Knight Returns.

Steve Englehart, Mike W. Barr and Denny O'Neil said no, he's not. Marshall Rogers said yes, he was. Marshall's take was that Bruce/Batman had a split personality. They were two completely separate people. Bruce would be eating dinner by himself in his big ass mansion with his butler in another room. And then he'd hear a voice. It was the costume. In his mind, the costume was talking. It was saying "Put me on! Avenge my parents! Confront evil! Put me on!" So Bruce would get up, head to the batcave, put the costume on, and go out and beat the shit out of bad guys. Then come home, become Bruce Wayne again, say "Good night, Alfred" and go to bed.

Marshall was one of the greatest Batman artists who ever lived and had what many consider to be a definitive run on Detective Comics. But I thought that was kind of a hot take.

I think Bruce drives himself way too hard and my advice to him would be to seek the counseling of a mental health professional. But I don't think he's insane.

I think Bruce's love of his adopted family is what keeps him grounded and real. They're his lifeline and they're what keeps him from going over a dark edge.

Just my take.
 
SDcomics said:
You know it's funny because we used to have the "Is Batman nuts" debate a lot at comic con back in the 80's when Frank Miller wrote and drew the Dark Knight Returns.

Steve Englehart, Mike W. Barr and Denny O'Neil said no, he's not. Marshall Rogers said yes, he was. Marshall's take was that Bruce/Batman had a split personality. They were two completely separate people. Bruce would be eating dinner by himself in his big ass mansion with his butler in another room. And then he'd hear a voice. It was the costume. In his mind, the costume was talking. It was saying "Put me on! Avenge my parents! Confront evil! Put me on!" So Bruce would get up, head to the batcave, put the costume on, and go out and beat the shit out of bad guys. Then come home, become Bruce Wayne again, say "Good night, Alfred" and go to bed.

Marshall was one of the greatest Batman artists who ever lived and had what many consider to be a definitive run on Detective Comics. But I thought that was kind of a hot take.

I think Bruce drives himself way too hard and my advice to him would be to seek the counseling of a mental health professional. But I don't think he's insane.

I think Bruce's love of his adopted family is what keeps him grounded and real. They're his lifeline and they're what keeps him from going over a dark edge.

Just my take.
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I think that's the beautiful thing about art; none of our interpretations are right or wrong. The same can be said for that list of creators, since characters like Batman have such expansive lore and nuances beyond the work of one or two creative teams. It's definitely about perspective. To me, Bruce and Joker are mirror images of each other; both are certifiably insane and belong in padded cells in Arkham. Everything about Bruce Wayne/Batman to me says comorbid psychiatric disorders and a loooooooooot of money, which is what makes him an interesting character to me vs. Iron Man who I find to be a douchebag.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Modern Tony would have been sitting in the front row at the 2025 presidential inauguration ceremony, and what makes me sadder than that is that a lot of “fans” would have cheered that. It depresses the hell out of me that one of my favorite childhood characters has become a character template for the worst real-life people I can think of. I don’t think Iron Man’s original creators would be proud of that, and if they were that would make me saddest of all.
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Ace, I love ya, bro. I really do. But I think you're wrong here.

Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are World War II veterans. Jack went overseas and actually saw combat. He lost some of his toes to frostbite in the Battle of the Bulge (Arctic warfare is pure fucking hell). He shot and killed Nazi's. There's no way on God's green Earth that either one of those men would be down with what's going on in the world today. No way.

And there's no way ANY Marvel character would be front and center at ANY President's inauguration. They have other things to do. There are certainly lots of other things they should be doing. There was a story back in the 80's where Captain America was offered the chance to run for President but he turned it down. He felt he could serve the American people in other ways and he was right. That's why I love that guy.

If modern Tony is being written like a MAGA then those writers have no business working at Marvel because they clearly don't get it.
 
SDcomics said:
If modern Tony is being written like a MAGA then those writers have no business working at Marvel because they clearly don't get it.
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That would be my point precisely. ESPECIALLY in the films.
Although I think it’s a bit of a “chicken or the egg” scenario, and I’m not actually accusing any particular set of writers of doing this *intentionally*, per se, (except maybe Joe Quesada, who made some hilariously tone-deaf statements circa Civil War about the “sides” that much aligned with then-current neo-con “Bush Doctrine” proto-fascist talking points), like I don’t think MCU Iron Man is a “psyop”, just an unfortunate melding of cultural zeitgeist and the insecure “manosphere”’s tendency to latch onto and reward antisocial behavior that “punches down”.

I absolutely agree with everything you said, particularly about Kirby’s antifascism. I’d like to think that he especially would be disgusted and disappointed.

But I don’t think I’m wrong about the “famous”, “modern” Iron Man being a character template for the worst real-life people I can think of: many of them have said as much, out loud and proudly. Elon Musk’s entire current public persona is a poor attempt at emulating MCU Tony; poor in the sense that he’s not witty enough to be so clever in his cruelty.
 
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