General Marvel Legends

This is why X-Men is the superior superhero franchise imo!!!!! Except Marvel Editorial's obsession with "persecuted minorities on the brink of genocide" stories for them. The end of Krakoa left a disgusting taste in my mouth because so many people (including creators and Editors) were very honest about the fact that they thought it was "unfair" for persecuted minorities to have their own prosperous country away from oppression...but if you look at who Marvel typically hires to write and edit X-Men comics, it's not that big of a shock.
 
It's also worth noting that Bruce Wayne was created as the son of "wealthy socialites." The Waynes were probably rich, and maybe even very rich if they came from old money. But the Waynes weren't the Rockefellers.
Yeah, the upping of the Wayne fortune from the wealthy family in the mansion outside the city - reasonable for a doctor who maybe came from some old money during the gilded age - to so well off he has unlimited resources, has made it too easy for Bruce.
 
My favorite two takes on Batman are one: The Mask of the Phantasm examination of Bruce when he's starting out. How Bruce actually *is* healing on his own, and when he meets Andrea he legitimately starts moving away from becoming the Dark Knight. I LOVE the moment he's at his parents grave and he's pleading with their memory that "it just doesn't hurt as much anymore" and asking if he can do anything else, if they'll just give him a sign it's ok to give up that vow. And Andrea shows up just in time to be that sign... and then she ghosts him and it sends him spiraling. I love the idea that a broken heart is what finally makes Batman, and that the film completely shows it as a Shakespearean tragedy.
For me, Batman TAS is pretty much the final word on that character, and Mask of the Phantasm is as good as (if not better than) any live action Batman movie. I just watched this movie recently.

Absolutely. To me, superheroes work best as new-age mythology.
Once you turn them toward real-world problems, the entire fantasy collapses on itself.
Yeah, sticking to the former is the safe bet and one I don't mind companies sticking to as long as possible. Once your superhero starts tangling with the later, people's real-world politics start to enter in and if the hero makes the choice that's opposite someone's political perception then you have an online kerfuffle which, worst case, billion dollar Disney and WB might start to feel in their pocketbook. Nothing risky about punching an intergalactic despot.
 
Yeah, the upping of the Wayne fortune from the wealthy family in the mansion outside the city - reasonable for a doctor who maybe came from some old money during the gilded age - to so well off he has unlimited resources, has made it too easy for Bruce.
I've never thought of this before and I agree. Like when the writers wake up one day and find out they made Superman so powerful that he's uninteresting, they have to depower him a little bit. Maybe time to defund Bruce a little bit? I mean, he can still be well off, can still build a sweet Batmobile, but maybe not have uNlImItEd MoNeY.

Bruce currently has so much money that he can essentially resurrect his dead butler with AI. At his age he HAS to use his resources in that way because he can't get through the day without some sage insight from his butler (and yes, he was a REALLY good butler, but still....). Talk about damaged goods.

One Batman story I really liked was Nolan's trilogy because Batman had an arc, a beginning, middle and end. He didn't fight crime in perpetuity. He did what he could, he became a symbol, he inspired others to do the same as he did, he turned Wayne Manor into a boys' home, and he retired to Europe with hottie Selina Kyle. He realized he'd done enough, he honored his parents' memory, he moved on. You don't see that in many Batman stories.
 
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I think there's a fundamental tension in superhero comics not necessarily because we know more about rich people now (because, I mean, rich people were pretty obviously immoral shitheels since time immemorial and rarely hid it) but rather because we're all older, and comics started to grow up with its audience. This is that same thing that takes people out of Indiana Jones, where people who saw it as children recognize now he's not only a bad archeologist, but that his endeavors are pilfering the holy relics of OTHER cultures for his own enrichment.

But then, there are little moments in those movies where it's clear other characters, and thus the writers, are aware that Indy isn't exactly aspirational, he's just far less corrupt than actual death cults and fascists.

But back to comics, the issue is when you start to grow them up and pointedly try to have them reflect the real world you tread ever closer to just recapitulating Watchmen, which is sort of the final word on superheroes as a concept. Anonymous people in masks doing "policing" is bad, actually, and there are no good versions of it in real life.

I do think X-Men manages to get a little farther because X-Men's premise makes it more scifi than superhero story at base. The X-Men don't go on nightly patrols to stop crime, because they aren't crime-fighters. They're an oppressed minority who is often leading an underground railroad or revolution against a complicit government. That core difference keeps them a little more fresh, though does expose them to a lot of other complications with the mutant metaphor. Over the years I think X-Men has really gotten sophisticated in tackling that problem.
 
How do you "buy off crime?"
Theoretically? You use your vast fortune to combat the root causes of crime; poverty, wealth inequality, food insecurity, etc. It's just fact that crime goes down significantly when all of peoples' needs are met. "If bread is free, no one steals bread" as it were.


It's also worth noting that Bruce Wayne was created as the son of "wealthy socialites." The Waynes were probably rich, and maybe even very rich if they came from old money. But the Waynes weren't the Rockefellers. It doesn't make sense to me that the son of a doctor would be a billionaire. The story has necessitated that more than anything. How could Bruce own a jet, military equipment, and state-of-the-art vehicles without hundreds of millions of dollars?

Making him a billionaire has fundamentally changed his character. It changed his morality. Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, [insert your billionaire of choice], could end world hunger, cure disease, [insert your human suffering of choice]. The fact that Bruce could do that and doesn't make him a far more complex figure than he would've been even 40 years ago.
Oh yeah - 1 million percent. When you give Batman literally unlimited means, you change the very foundation of the character and make him something starkly different from what he was at conception. Unfortunately, the more our real life technology develops, the less sense can be made from Batman having any effectiveness JUST being a costumed dude with a cool car and a good hiding spot.
I don't envy comic writers today that have to grapple with this.

Absolutely. To me, superheroes work best as new-age mythology. What's the biggest problem facing our world right now? Climate change? Keep Superman as far away from it as humanly possible. Superheroes should only deal with larger-than-life villains within their pantheon, like Cronus (Greek mythology) or Loki (Norse). Once you turn them toward real-world problems, the entire fantasy collapses on itself.
Absolutely true. But you're also always going to struggle with external (and internal, sometimes) questions of 'if they can do this, why don't they do that?' When DC has 724 God-level beings hanging around on earth at any given time, it takes some mental gymnastics to convince yourself away from even thinking about how much good they don't seem to bother doing in the day-to-day existence of regular people.

That's yet another reason why I've always preferred supernatural/street level heroes. It's much easier to explain why 300 Daredevils didn't stop the genocide in Gaza than it is to explain why 300 Supermans didn't stop it.

Yeah, sticking to the former is the safe bet and one I don't mind companies sticking to as long as possible. Once your superhero starts tangling with the later, people's real-world politics start to enter in and if the hero makes the choice that's opposite someone's political perception then you have an online kerfuffle which, worst case, billion dollar Disney and WB might start to feel in their pocketbook. Nothing risky about punching an intergalactic despot.

I don't think it's fully possible to avoid this. Basically everything beyond 'the supervillain created a death ray to murder the entire world' is going to have political context. You can only have so many villains that are in the vein of 'chaos for the sake of chaos.' X-Men literally only exist as a politically motivated story. In a way, so does every Punisher story. We could even argue that Daredevil's more interesting character element is that he's deeply Catholic - but making him religious IS a political decision that can upset or alienate all kinds of people.

Just me, just my opinion, but I don't think comics should be afraid of anything. Tell the story and let people react how they're gonna react. At the end of the day, as we've clearly seen in the modern world, plenty of people will just ignore the real politics if it doesn't align with their beliefs anyway (i.e. racists that like X-Men, or fascists that love Superman and Captain America).



I think there's a fundamental tension in superhero comics not necessarily because we know more about rich people now (because, I mean, rich people were pretty obviously immoral shitheels since time immemorial and rarely hid it) but rather because we're all older, and comics started to grow up with its audience. This is that same thing that takes people out of Indiana Jones, where people who saw it as children recognize now he's not only a bad archeologist, but that his endeavors are pilfering the holy relics of OTHER cultures for his own enrichment.
I agree, but I also don't think it should be understated how much 'being massively wealthy' has changed since the '50s and '60s, and even the '80s and '90s. I think rich people did spend more resources on hiding how awful they were. I do think we knew less about what they were up to, and society at large (not just us as children) understood less about how much they were destroying civilization. Wealth inequality wasn't -that- bad (in 1st world countries) in the '80s. People felt things were going well. Most, even intelligent, people still bought into the idea that massive wealth was a possibility for anyone. And we didn't have social media to show us, in real time, how fucking atrociously disgusting rich people were and what they -actually- do with their money day-to-day, or what the difference -really- was between a regular working guy and a millionaire (we didn't even think in terms of 'billionaires' back then - that was a fantasy idea).
 
How much do the X-Men suffer from the "no good billionaires" problem? The Xavier estate must have been worth at least as much as the Waynes given what it affords - even back in the 70s they were buying multiple experimental supersonic jets.
 
How much do the X-Men suffer from the "no good billionaires" problem? The Xavier estate must have been worth at least as much as the Waynes given what it affords - even back in the 70s they were buying multiple experimental supersonic jets.
I think the X-Men have always gotten a pass for two reasons:
1) They're almost never explicitly called out as being rich. Xavier would probably have to be, but it's not laid out for the reader as neatly as with other characters, so it's easier to gloss over it and just be like 'they live in a mansion because there's a lot of them.'
2.) MOST of their use of money seems directed at hiding themselves away and keeping themselves safe. They didn't decide to use billions of dollars to fight crime because they're narcissists with daddy issues or drinking problems, but because it's literally the only way to keep everyone from wanting to exterminate them.

As stand-ins for every oppressed minority, I'd argue the X-Men just get an auto-pass on a lot of things.
 
I think the X-Men have always gotten a pass for two reasons:
1) They're almost never explicitly called out as being rich. Xavier would probably have to be, but it's not laid out for the reader as neatly as with other characters, so it's easier to gloss over it and just be like 'they live in a mansion because there's a lot of them.'
2.) MOST of their use of money seems directed at hiding themselves away and keeping themselves safe. They didn't decide to use billions of dollars to fight crime because they're narcissists with daddy issues or drinking problems, but because it's literally the only way to keep everyone from wanting to exterminate them.

As stand-ins for every oppressed minority, I'd argue the X-Men just get an auto-pass on a lot of things.
I think the differences in what X-Men are and what they stand for is well taken, and probably correct.

For what it's worth though, Xavier is very explicitly shown as being extremely wealthy from the very beginning, having inherited family wealth very much in the old school comic tradition of Oliver Queen, Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark, etc. In New X-Men, Fantomex at one point puts his estimated net worth at several billion. I'm not sure if they ever explained where the family money came from besides "rich scientist," which - yeah, sure.
 
How much do the X-Men suffer from the "no good billionaires" problem? The Xavier estate must have been worth at least as much as the Waynes given what it affords - even back in the 70s they were buying multiple experimental supersonic jets.
Angel comes from money but that character is a mess. No two writers will have the same take on him.
 
The X-Men also play the No Good Billionaires trope straight. At any given time they're bankrolled by either Xavier or Emma Frost, both of whom are portrayed as deeply morally ambiguous at best.
 
And we didn't have social media to show us, in real time, how fucking atrociously disgusting rich people were and what they -actually- do with their money day-to-day, or what the difference -really- was between a regular working guy and a millionaire (we didn't even think in terms of 'billionaires' back then - that was a fantasy idea).
Y'know I'll revise my statement on this. You're right. Social media has allowed us real-time access to at least some billionaires and their thought processes in a way we didn't have before. And it definitely has opened a window on just how banal, ignorant, and just plain shitty they are. Good point.
For what it's worth though, Xavier is very explicitly shown as being extremely wealthy from the very beginning, having inherited family wealth very much in the old school comic tradition of Oliver Queen, Bruce Wayne, Tony Stark, etc. In New X-Men, Fantomex at one point puts his estimated net worth at several billion. I'm not sure if they ever explained where the family money came from besides "rich scientist," which - yeah, sure.
X-Men largely get a pass because Charles isn't typically the primary POV character. You are always more distant from him and his fortune than Batman because Charles isn't (usually) the first guy on a mission. He serves more in that Gandalf-like supporting role. He COULD mix it up with the rest of the heroes, but he's largely there to organize and send them on the quest.

Also, Chuck spends about half the time faking his death or being off in space or on a dinosaur preserve in antarctica or wherever else anyway. The X-Men are often simply coasting on his residual wealth (obviously Charles has been using auto bill-pay for a while now) rather than having him around to actively buy off their problems, which he wouldn't do anyway because if you do it *too* much people might notice this posh private school is actually harboring several people the government lists as terrorists.
 
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Never stopped anyone from being published and cultivating a fan base and sometimes fortune.

And as someone who's more classic Peter than Oliver Queen, I find all that to be part of the escape and power fantasy. He has the same struggles, and they're even worse because of his choices, but at the end of the day it's idealized that doing the right thing can pay off.

The stressor is that doing the right thing means nothing in the real world and you'll be f'd over for playing by the rules. But I'd rather strive towards that and hope it makes someone's life easier than be... *Gestures to political thread*.

But I don't enjoy Iron Man or Batman when hes a tech God or even Thor or Strange who can just deus ex stuff up. I like my Parkers and Murdocks.
I do put Ollie in a different category from other billionaire superheroes because he's so often written as that one rich guy who is like "guys, we're FUCKED UP and we should BE BETTER." Not always, but it's the rare case the rich guy actually knows that hoarding wealth is a dick move.

And yeah, moving Batman from "rich guy in the countryside with some family money" to "world power in the financial world" changes how we look at him, too.
 
should be afraid of anything. Tell the story and let people react how they're gonna react. At the end of the day, as we've clearly seen in the modern world, plenty of people will just ignore the real politics if it doesn't align with their beliefs anyway (i.e. racists that like X-Men, or fascists that love Superman and Captain America).
This.

Also: I guess I see Batman a little differently. I see him as the terrestrial version of the Superman altruism fantasy: “what if *one* of these rich shits was secretly a hyper-altruist who used all his financial power for good?” Yes, there are real-world applications of financial-power “good” that resonate in ways Superman’s physical powers don’t, and I suppose that’s the suspension of disbelief. But for me, Batman is a “what if the strongest guy only used that strength for the common good” fantasy all the way. Indeed, in this time of seeing real-life billionaires stripped to their ugly core, I feel I need that fantasy more than ever.

As for politics in comics: well, trying to avoid that would seem to be a betrayal of the values of the creators of the 30s and 40s who got all this started. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain America: all explicitly antifascist creations. One of the reasons I still bother with comic book characters is that I know punching Nazis is what they do.
 
Yes, there are real-world applications of financial-power “good” that resonate in ways Superman’s physical powers don’t, and I suppose that’s the suspension of disbelief. But for me, Batman is a “what if the strongest guy only used that strength for the common good” fantasy all the way.
I think the suspension of disbelief falls apart (for me, and apparently others) when his wealth level becomes so god-tier that it seems like he could single-handedly fix, at the very least, the entirety of the country. He works better when his wealth level is somewhere in the area of 'could do a bit of local good, but would run out of money before making enough of a difference to matter long-term.' Then it makes sense that he uses his wealth in the best way he believes he can rather than the obvious better way everyone but apparently him are aware of.
 
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