NECA '87 Toon TMNT

One thing that I thought was interesting is that Super7 debuted a new TMNT line -- the ReAction+ TMNT figures with O-rings. Would seem weird to start a new line that doesn't launch until H2 (and currently only has Raph and Donnie) if they're losing the license soon. I think whatever happens happens with both NECA and Super7.
 
I was telling my wife just last night that if NECA loses the license, I will have a sense of relief, I feel. The weight shall be lifted.

I know that I will never stop collecting the line of my own volition. It's the line I have always wanted Turtles to be my whole life. What my rose colored glasses saw with the old Playmates. And at this point, as far in to this line as I am, which is pretty much everything, I cannot just walk away on my own. I just can't.

...but if I have no choice? Well. That's that. Yes, it bums me out, I don't necessarily want it to be over, but it certainly forces me to go through the stages of grief and be able to move on and let go.
 
I held off on collecting the NECA TMNT stuff for many year. Literally would have stuff in my cart at Target and then put it back at the last minute. I did this because I knew I’d get in deep and didn’t have the space at the time. Once I got a house with a dedicated “office” (read action figure room), I went all in. Still have a lot to catch up on, but would be a bummer for the line to end.


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gpmartin414 said:
One thing that I thought was interesting is that Super7 debuted a new TMNT line -- the ReAction+ TMNT figures with O-rings. Would seem weird to start a new line that doesn't launch until H2 (and currently only has Raph and Donnie) if they're losing the license soon. I think whatever happens happens with both NECA and Super7.
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I think what this -could- come down to is; how far along in development were those figures? Super7 isn't known for moving through design and production quickly. Maybe they expected these to be ready much earlier. But if they were far enough in development by the time it was obvious they'd lose the license, then they either have to eat all the costs associated with development or finish production and sell what they have.

I mean, does anyone here think for a single second that Super7 cares if you buy two turtles and never got the other two? Sorry, I can't even make myself wait for your answer; no, they don't care at all. If they can get you to buy these, then they win. They got your money. And if they contractually can't make more, they know you can't even -really- be mad at them for not making the others. It gets to be Mattel's fault and Super7 gets to play the aggrieved party that 'really thought' they'd be able to bring you more figures.


NOT saying that's a foregone conclusion and it's definitely what's going to happen. But them putting these figures up can really go either way here is all.
 
Damien said:
I think what this -could- come down to is; how far along in development were those figures? Super7 isn't known for moving through design and production quickly. Maybe they expected these to be ready much earlier. But if they were far enough in development by the time it was obvious they'd lose the license, then they either have to eat all the costs associated with development or finish production and sell what they have.

I mean, does anyone here think for a single second that Super7 cares if you buy two turtles and never got the other two? Sorry, I can't even make myself wait for your answer; no, they don't care at all. If they can get you to buy these, then they win. They got your money. And if they contractually can't make more, they know you can't even -really- be mad at them for not making the others. It gets to be Mattel's fault and Super7 gets to play the aggrieved party that 'really thought' they'd be able to bring you more figures.


NOT saying that's a foregone conclusion and it's definitely what's going to happen. But them putting these figures up can really go either way here is all.
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I wonder what the timeline is for a toy company to cancel production at the factory. I’ve always heard from concept to being available is about 18 months, but it does seem like stuff gets canceled last minute all the time.

I’m going to be more hopeful that there still is a place for NECA and Super7 with TMNT.

I genuinely do think they’re going after a different market (at least than Playmates did).


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Super7 releases ReAction+ figures within a month or two of announcements. That’s how it’s been with GI Joe.
 
gpmartin414 said:
I wonder what the timeline is for a toy company to cancel production at the factory. I’ve always heard from concept to being available is about 18 months, but it does seem like stuff gets canceled last minute all the time.
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So 18 months is like 'concept to boat' timeline. You gotta keep in mind that the design, sculpting, approvals, and deco process takes -most- of that time. Tooling is like.. a couple weeks to a couple months, depending on complexity/number of the tools and how long it takes to get the tools right (so this process includes running samples to test functionality/fidelity). Actual production can literally take weeks to a couple of months as well, depending on the product complexity (how many parts to assemble, how many paint deco hits, how many color changes for the plastic injection).

That being said, the decision to cancel is a pretty huge one depending on what stage the product is at. If you're at the stage where the product is at the factory at all, you've already hit a significant financial investment just in paying designers, sculptors, etc. So you have to be willing to just say 'okay, we didn't need that 15 grand.' If you've cut tooling, now you're adding tooling costs and you have to be willing to say 'it's okay, we didn't need that 80 grand.'
If you're at a point in production where you've already paid the factory for tooling samples and packaging mock-ups, now you're like 'it's okay, we didn't need that 100 grand.'

At some point, it's more economically responsible to just finish production and sell what you've come up with, even if you know that line isn't going anywhere. It's why you might see a single wave of movie toy product and then never anything else ever again because the movie bombed. They already sunk so much into that product, they HAVE to release it and hope to get some of that money back. It's also why you see things like Mattel releasing WWE fgures of wrestlers that were fired or are literally already appearing on a competitor's program; it's financial murder for WWE to say 'if someone gets fired or leaves, you have to eat the cost of making their figure and never release it.' That's only happened like once at the very beginning with the Jeff Hardy figure and it sucked for Mattel.

Anyway.... I'm still 100% not saying 'Super7 definitely cannot make TMNT product.' So don't take it that way. I'm just saying there's a lot of financial incentive for them to A) Lie about that fact, B) obfuscate that fact, and/or C) release whatever product they can right now and even collect pre-order money for product that will get cancelled.
 
I could be misremembering, but I feel like back when NECA first "lost" the Friday and/or Nightmare licenses, they were actually allowed to still release a couple figures that had already been "in production"? Ringing any bells with anyone else? Obviously, the situation is not perfectly parallel, since no one else was getting those licenses instead at the time.
 
NORM said:
Super7 releases ReAction+ figures within a month or two of announcements. That’s how it’s been with GI Joe.
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The new TMNT ones went up Saturday on EE with a June release. They’re not listed any more but I can see them in my order page.


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Here's the other thing I wonder, and this could just be my own ignorance, but: do we know that Paramount was even offering Mattel the same kind of deal that we all think Playmates had, where they'd have any say at all over what other companies could have or did with the license? Why would Paramount want to just let all that other licensing money go?
 
cmoney said:
I could be misremembering, but I feel like back when NECA first "lost" the Friday and/or Nightmare licenses, they were actually allowed to still release a couple figures that had already been "in production"? Ringing any bells with anyone else? Obviously, the situation is not perfectly parallel, since no one else was getting those licenses instead at the time.
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I know with that whole situation they were allowed to keep selling what they'd already made. They couldn't make anything new, however. That's still the case with Nightmare on Elm Street, but the Jason stuff had a little crack in it when they were able to get Part 7 out, and then somehow Pamela. And those rights seem to have remained fucked, since they're now doing "video game" licensing to get around it all.
 
cmoney said:
Here's the other thing I wonder, and this could just be my own ignorance, but: do we know that Paramount was even offering Mattel the same kind of deal that we all think Playmates had, where they'd have any say at all over what other companies could have or did with the license? Why would Paramount want to just let all that other licensing money go?
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Well, we are dealing with a different kind of Paramount now, so there are so many variables that we just don't know.

Did this kill every licensing deal in place and start negotiations over from scratch? Do the current deals stay in place until whenever they are up? Is this just the deal that Playmates had with the master license? We just don't know and no one is really talking.

Brian from Super7 made it sound like option 1 with everyone having to come to the table to negotiate a new deal. As unreliable a source as he is, I have to believe there's a truth to that.

If it is a case of everyone having to start over, and if Star Trek is any indication, they may have priced themselves out of anyone outside of the big two from being able to justify the price tag, to be honest. Especially considering, at least in this current pop culture climate, TMNT holds more value than Trek, you ask me.

However, with that, let's be frank here: TMNT toy popularity certainly isn't what it was during COVID. At least to that degree. Of course, *we* all love the property still, and it's evergreen, kids will always love it. But no one is hardcore tracking it down like people were with NECA and GI Joe Classified back then. In fact, most COVID Collectors are back doing whatever the hell it was they were doing before they infiltrated our hobby. And as a result, the NECA Turtles stuff is pretty easy to find, and thus, I have to imagine not selling nearly as well as it once was.

That said, NECA might not be seeing the returns to justify whatever it is that the Ellison chodes are demanding.

All conjecture on my part, obviously.
 
cmoney said:
Here's the other thing I wonder, and this could just be my own ignorance, but: do we know that Paramount was even offering Mattel the same kind of deal that we all think Playmates had, where they'd have any say at all over what other companies could have or did with the license? Why would Paramount want to just let all that other licensing money go?
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We don't, but it stands to reason. It was very clear that Mattel has acquired the master license, which is the same license Playmates had. Could Paramount have restructured how that contract looks? Definitely. But my understanding is most toy master licenses are reasonably similar.
Also, it's worth noting that (again, to my understanding), Playmates did NOT actually have a say over what other companies could do. I think that's a misunderstanding that was put out there by the fans. Playmates had a license that let them do XYZ, let's say, and gives them exclusive rights to do YZ. Anyone can negotiate with Paramount to do ABC and X. Nothing Playmates can do about it.
Where it gets hairy is when Playmates can argue that someone doing B is -actually- doing Y, which they have exclusive rights to do.

Also, Playmates had tenure and mostly a good relationship with the owner of TMNT, which also would allow them to weasel in and say 'we don't like that this company is doing A because it's kind of similar to Z.' They would probably lose that as a legal battle, but Viacom/Paramount has decent incentive, from their excellent and very long-standing relationship with Playmates, to step in and say 'hey, we'd like you, other company, to do something different with A.' Again, that company can induce a legal battle over it, but even if they win they lose, because once that contract is up they'll never have a good relationship with the licensor ever again.

As always, sometimes it's not about what you can do, but what you can get away with. And sometimes it's about what someone else can get you to do, even if they have no legal standing.
 
The master license is certainly the most profitable for Paramount. Mattel paid the most and will produce TMNT toys in the greatest abundance. As such, Paramount will alwyas have an incentive to essentially side with Mattel in regards to any disputes. Playmates seemed to get their way when TMNT was owned and managed by Peter Laird who either sided with them when they allegedly objected to what NECA was doing or he didn't have the stomach to fight with them over it. Paramount, being a much bigger, corporate, entity did have the stomach for such fights and also didn't have a relationship stretching back to the 80s to fall back on.

What worked in favor of NECA and others is the apparent disinterest Playmates had towards the adult collector market. It basically opened everything up for these smaller shops to fill a niche. Mattel, on the other hand, does court that market which is where the uncertainty going forward lies. In addition to the rising costs associated with the license. Mattel might just want to do what Playmates was doing and Paramount would probably be happy with them staying in that lane too, but if Mattel says, "Hey, we want to make turtles that look like the 87 designs," they're probably going to get their way.
 
Misfit said:
"Hey, we want to make turtles that look like the 87 designs," they're probably going to get their way.
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I cannot say this is how things always are, so take this with an entire sea of salt, but it may be worth mentioning:
I have seen precisely 1 (one - singular) actual, real life, complete (master) licensing contract for toys. A very large property. There was basically a 'right of first refusal' in the contract that allowed the licensee what was essentially first dibs on all toy-related product before sub-licenses could be farmed out.
Most companies just can't/won't do -everything-. Like, Hasbro probably could have crushed DST by saying 'we also want to make specialty retail 7" figures.' But why -would- they? It's a terrible use of their resources. Let DST have a tiny piece of a pie that Hasbro is otherwise absolutely devouring - it doesn't really hurt Hasbro. Under that theory of a contract, Mattel may legitimately want to make all this stuff. OR they might just think it's worth making a little of everything so they don't have to even worry about anyone competing, even indirectly, with their stuff.

Time will tell.
 
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