Marvel Cinematic Universe Movies and Streaming Series Discussion

[fac]

And that's always been something I've mentioned when fans have complained how few movies in the recent phases have tied directly to the next Avengers beyond a character or characters that'll show up in it.

I feel like they set the audience to expect that focus though by announcing that Phase 4 to 6 would be multiverse focused leading to Kang Dynasty. No one made them announce back in 2020 what was planned for 5 or 6 or 7 years later and I think it backfired not only because they moved on from Kang but also because it didn't let anything seem standalone, or that the standalone plot was secondary to the big plot.

 

[Ru1977]

Fair enough, and as exciting as it was to know what was coming up on the slate, I've always thought it was a mistake to get us looking ahead too much because it can get difficult to focus on what's coming out now. But you're right that we didn't know it was "the infinity saga" until toward the end, or even after it was over, I can't remember. Having the saga umbrella ahead of time wasn't a good move.

 

[fac]

Runaways, Inhumans, Cloak & Dagger and even AOS weren't part of Marvel Studios and from when the television division was very separate from the movie side.

AoS was directly linked for the first few seasons, with Coulson, Fury and Sif appearing, and referencing Thor 2, Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron plots somewhat directly. I think it really fell apart when Whedon was moved on from Marvel, given he was involved with AoS at the start and had his brother as a producer.

 

[Ru1977]

AoS was directly linked for the first few seasons, with Coulson, Fury and Sif appearing, and referencing Thor 2, Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron plots somewhat directly. I think it really fell apart when Whedon was moved on from Marvel, given he was involved with AoS at the start and had his brother as a producer.

That's all true, but even at the time Whedon said "if they HAVE to do this show, I'd rather try to steer it some myself at least." But like I said, every connection you mentioned was a one way street.

 

[fac]

That's all true, but even at the time Whedon said "if they HAVE to do this show, I'd rather try to steer it some myself at least." But like I said, every connection you mentioned was a one way street.

Agreed, but eventually they didn't even seem to get info about what was happening in the MCU to tie-in at all.

 

[Damien]

This may be a matter of splitting hairs over what constitutes 'part of the MCU.' Clearly, all those shows were envisioned as being part of the larger world they had created. They directly reference the films at times, AND the shows were not allowed to use certain characters specifically because it would have -required- bringing in the established (MCU) actors. AoS was also not allowed to use John Blaze GR because they hadn't decided how to use Blaze in the MCU yet, so they only allowed them to use Robby.
These were not seen at the time of their creation as distinct and separate products, but all as part of one larger narrative. The fact that they can go back after the fact and be like 'nevermind, AoS never happened in the MCU' isn't really material to that point.

But the shows were absolutely written and used in a way that the films could/would ignore them completely so that the shows could all be de-canonized whenever it suited the larger MCU if they decided to do something different later. However, all of those things were supposed to be assumed as canon until/unless someone said otherwise or a film contradicted them. I mean, they literally had to announce that AoS and Inhumans were no longer canon to the MCU. I.E. they -were- canon when created.

 

[Ru1977]

A lot of the shows were things Feige had no intention of using and essentially gave away to the TV side. As far as I could ever tell, he never considered any of it MCU canon. A few years into Marvel Television's life was when the split really took effect and Feige was completely in charge of the MCU, answering directly to Alan Horn rather than Perlmutter. Perlmutter was still in charge of the television side, and Feige washed his hands of things like Inhumans. (Initially it was to be a movie that Feige didn't want to make but the split meant he could take it off the slate completely and Perlmutter made it a series instead.)

So yeah, I think in the beginning it was more ambiguous but people like Feige and even Whedon made it clear this was being forced on them. Once Feige had the reins entirely, he was completely open about the television stuff being separate.

 

[AceofKnaves]

The corporate catchphrase was literally “It’s All Connected!”

 

[Damien]

I think the only thing we disagree on, really, is whether it was ambiguous. It wasn't. They were very clear that these were MCU shows in all the marketing and such. The fact that it pissed Feige off is not relevant because he doesn't own Marvel or Disney and his dislike of the shows only became a legitimate de-canonization after the fact. They were still made as MCU projects and were released as MCU projects. So if you watched them when they came out, you were watching something that was part of the MCU.
If you watch them NOW, that's a different story because they are no longer considered canon and can be completely ignored while still having the 'full' story as far as Disney is concerned. But at the time of release, they were pressing on the idea that if you didn't watch those shows, you weren't getting the FULL story.

And Secret Invasion is still canon, despite the fact it fucking should not be because it is the worst thing Marvel Studios has ever done.

 

[Ru1977]

The corporate catchphrase was literally “It’s All Connected!”

Yes, from Loeb/Perlmutter/Marvel Television. Not from Feige/MCU proper.

I think the only thing we disagree on, really, is whether it was ambiguous. It wasn't.

Eh.... It still was. The movies NEVER referenced them. The shows played at that and made it look like that, ABC made a big deal about it all being connected but it became clear pretty quickly it was not connected.

They were very clear that these were MCU shows in all the marketing and such.

Yes, because Loeb wanted people to believe that and tune in. If they'd been up front about it, they wouldn't have gotten what audience they did.

The fact that it pissed Feige off is not relevant because he doesn't own Marvel or Disney and his dislike of the shows only became a legitimate de-canonization after the fact.

I get why you see it that way, but Feige wasn't just anyone at marvel, even at this point. He was never forced by Disney or anyone else to have Ming Na Wen appear in Age of Ultron, or Deathlok appear in Winter Soldier etc. he kept all of that out of the MCU.

They were still made as MCU projects and were released as MCU projects.

But... They really were not. Even at the time. Thy even used the Marvel logo that was being used by every marvel project (Fox, Sony) outside of Marvel Studios. As far as the movie side of things, the actual MCU, the shows were still very much separate continuity.

Look, Feige started the MCU, the Loeb and the television people rode those coattails. Doesn't mean they suck, doesn't mean you can't pretend it's all connected, but as far as the powers that be at the actual MCU were concerned, they were not. Once the Marvel committee was dissolved and Feige was answering directly to Disney, he made that utterly clear. Wasn't a de-canonization as much as admission.

So if you watched them when they came out, you were watching something that was part of the MCU.

Or at least you could pretend it was.

And I say that as a massive Daredevil fan, but at the time there was never any possible chance of him appearing in Age of Ultron. He had a show because Feige had no interest in using him.

If you watch them NOW, that's a different story because they are no longer considered canon and can be completely ignored while still having the 'full' story as far as Disney is concerned.

But that's the thing; you could completely ignore them then as well and have the full story. They were a stepup from fan fiction as far as the MCU was concerned.

But at the time of release, they were pressing on the idea that if you didn't watch those shows, you weren't getting the FULL story.

Right, because marketing. The television people wanted movie audiences to feel compelled to tune in.

And Secret Invasion is still canon, despite the fact it fucking should not be because it is the worst thing Marvel Studios has ever done.

Solid goddamned note to end on as we are in utter agreement. Let us embrace.

 

[AceofKnaves]

Wow, and here was me, feeling I was being bullied into watching all those shows, including the execrable AoS, because I was being *directly told* by advertising that it was part of the connected whole.
I dunno if Feige liked it or not and honestly I don’t care, but I was there and that was absolutely what was going on.

Not to get too far into the weeds here, but it was pretty obvious at the time that once Feige fully consolidated his power, he jettisoned the stuff he didn’t like or didn’t “own” creatively.

And I’ll be real: Feige’s tyranny over the material and beating it all into homogeneity is a huge part of my MCU beef.

 

[fac]

My take -

Netflix was a pocket universe at the time, now folded in the same way Spidey and X-Men and FF are being folded in.

X-Men related shows (Legion and The Gifted) were distinct as Fox productions.

Runaways and Cloak and Dagger were adjacent but were more or less standalone as the Young Adult line.

But I think anything produced by a subset of Disney, aired on ABC, that involved characters from the films and promoted connections - Shield and Agent Carter - have to be considered MCU. Just because Feige won an eventual power struggle over Loeb et al and disowned the shows doesn't mean that not being connected was the plan - he just didn't want to have to link to it after awhile. If Marvel/Disney et al didn't want the shows to be connected they never would have launched and shared info.

 

[AceofKnaves]

If Marvel/Disney et al didn't want the shows to be connected they never would have launched and shared info.

This.
No matter whose idea “It’s All Connected!” was, the fact is that that advertisement was used and used *very* prominently, and no one said “no, don’t do that”.

 

[fac]

Eh.... It still was. The movies NEVER referenced them. The shows played at that and made it look like that, ABC made a big deal about it all being connected but it became clear pretty quickly it was not connected.

I get what you are saying in that it was a one way street but that is the nature of spinoffs. Star Wars never referenced the events in any of the spin-off materials either but in the overall continuity Ahsoka and Grogu and Mandalore exists.

 

[Ru1977]

I really want to let it go becuase I know no one is changing their mind, and no one even has to, but I'll just say... for a massive film franchise that leans hard into references and cameos and shoutouts, for the movies to never reference the shows (except, I guess, once in a while but really because the shows knew what was coming and were able to construct what looked like a set-up for a payoff on the big screen), I think, says a lot.

But the Star Wars thing is a good comparison because they had different levels of canon. The movies were primary, and everything else was essentially whatever because George might make it not count with the next film. Then Disney bought it and said "Everything is canon now!" Which sounds a little familiar, but even then... things in comics and such ended up not counting with the next film or show.