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The example I keep going back to is Rise of Skywalker. My apologies to anyone who likes it- I don't mean to yuck your yum, but it's a movie that, to me, not only clearly goes back on what was established before, but takes great pains to show you that it is, to try and regain your trust. Obviously it had other issues going on- namely Carrie's death- but still. There's something to be said for a franchise that sticks to its guns and tells the story it wants to tell, even if it isn't super well-received by all. Not everything can or will resonate with everyone, and that's okay.
I'm usually the odd man out in that I think a lot (not all, let's not go into it) of the stuff in Last Jedi was good and a genuine attempt at a fresh direction for Star Wars. Rise of Skywalker was, I think, indefensible. It's like it was written by someone who was heavily concussed. It careens away from every bold decision the previous film made and doesn't land a single emotional note well. The plot is... god it's barely coherent, and the script seems to have only bad ideas for Rey and Kylo, and no idea at all for the rest of the cast.

I think the sequel trilogy works better than the prequels, but only barely, and largely because I think the new characters int he sequels, despite being done dirty every way imaginable by the end, were in concept all great ideas with excellent actors behind them.
 
I found this a few years ago and saved it because it seemed kind of insightful. I'm not enough of a film snob (respectfully) to really get it, though.
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Thanks for sharing this - I think this is exactly right. And the people in charge don't understand and definitely don't care.

Audiences have repeatedly said "I'm done with trying new shows" after every cancellation. And what has happened? Almost every new show debuts a little lower.

Audiences told the networks what they wanted and what they'd do. And did. And yet, confusion continues to abound as to what the audience wants and where they went.
 
A huge part of what's happening now in TV and film (and most other media) is the end result of people who have no interest in art or culture being the only people who can make real decisions in those industries. They are risk averse, profit motivated, and myopic to what's happening in the next quarter. If a show didn't goose the stock by some arbitrary number, it's out, regardless of it's potential longevity or ability to gain audience. If a direction in a show is getting bad results from fans now, there's no drive to stick behind a creator with a vision to see where a thing might end up. There's tighter deadlines with less concern on quality, and everybody doing the work of making the stuff is pinched for time, energy, and increasingly pay.

The bankers have completely taken over.
 
Hollywood has always been concerned with its bottom line, but the shareholder-ization has taken full effect. Ars Gratia Artis, yeah fucking right.
I guess I understand, but also have almost no sympathy for that. I'm missing the actual real world around me. They're missing a fantasy world that literally only exists on a screen.
When I read, I love to escape to a fantasy world. That's about the horrors of the news, though, not our beautiful planet. There have been so many movies made about appreciating the world around you while you can. (Pixar's Soul is the first one that comes to mind, for some reason, even though I'm decidedly not a Pixar guy.) Believing that the digitally created Avatar world is better than Earth is a take.
 
A huge part of what's happening now in TV and film (and most other media) is the end result of people who have no interest in art or culture being the only people who can make real decisions in those industries. They are risk averse, profit motivated, and myopic to what's happening in the next quarter. If a show didn't goose the stock by some arbitrary number, it's out, regardless of it's potential longevity or ability to gain audience. If a direction in a show is getting bad results from fans now, there's no drive to stick behind a creator with a vision to see where a thing might end up. There's tighter deadlines with less concern on quality, and everybody doing the work of making the stuff is pinched for time, energy, and increasingly pay.

The bankers have completely taken over.

I agree, but social media is also heavily to blame because everyone wants clout for their loud negative opinion about whatever they don't like even if it's based on barely any actual information. I've seen so many spycam photos of Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey against my will on Reddit, and the posts are always full of people bitching because the costumes aren't "historically accurate," because Nolan had the audacity to cast half-Black Zendaya and Black Lupita N'yongo, because Matt Damon, and whatever else. It's a work of fiction, FFS. There are witches and Gods in it. They flood the discourse about upcoming content at times years in advance and it definitely has an affect.
 
They are risk averse, profit motivated, and myopic to what's happening in the next quarter.
The cost of production and talent salaries seems like it has gone crazy though - I suspect the financial pressure must be crazy.

Here are some budget numbers -
Star Wars ANH was $11 mil, adjusted to about $61 mil today
Star Wars ESB was $33 mil, adjusted to about $138 mil today
Star Wars RotJ was $33 mil, adjusted to about $110 mil today
An average of a little over $100 million per film.

The Sequel Trilogy cost 4 to 6 times that average per film -
Star Wars TFA was $447 mil, adjusted to about $621 mil today (10x ANH!!)
Star Wars TLJ was $317 mil, adjusted to about $424 mil today
Star Wars RoS was ~$490 mil, adjusted to about $632 mil today

Some films in 2024 that had budgets in the $100 to $150 million range -
The Fall Guy; Beverly Hills Cop: Axel F; Kraven the Hunter

Some films in 2024 that had $200 million budgets -
Deadpool & Wolverine; Gladiator II; Red One; Joker: Folie a Deau

It kind of amazes me that it costs so much more these days.
 
I agree, but social media is also heavily to blame because everyone wants clout for their loud negative opinion about whatever they don't like even if it's based on barely any actual information. I've seen so many spycam photos of Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey against my will on Reddit, and the posts are always full of people bitching because the costumes aren't "historically accurate," because Nolan had the audacity to cast half-Black Zendaya and Black Lupita N'yongo, because Matt Damon, and whatever else. It's a work of fiction, FFS. There are witches and Gods in it. They flood the discourse about upcoming content at times years in advance and it definitely has an affect.
Also this. Agreed totally.
 
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I've seen so many spycam photos of Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey against my will on Reddit, and the posts are always full of people bitching because the costumes aren't "historically accurate,"
I mean... hold on now. Are we not allowed to bitch that Nolan's Odyssey's material culture looks fucking stupid?
 
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Having seen pics and drawings of the supposed period accurate armour all the history expert nerds are whining should be used instead, I can only say "FUCK YOUR CLOWNSUIT", I will happily take whatever inaccurate bullshit Nolan's guys have come up with instead. All their examples looked like complete shit, and a complete pain in the arse to do anything in.
 
The period-accurate armor looks like when a kid can't afford a certain Halloween costume and has to shoddily make it at home from leftover materials. Like, I get that that's what they had back then, but I feel like if I showed up to a costume party in that, it would only end in me getting an atomic wedgie.

Sure, you have the people (nerds) complaining that it's not accurate to the time period, but you'd also have film bros complaining that the accurate thing looks stupid, and honestly, I'd rather listen to the former than the latter.

That said, I'm very much looking forward to it. I'm one of those people who got their ticket when they went on sale like a year in advance.
 
I would prefer you did it after at least seeing a trailer!
Why?
Genuinely, not like sarcastic or whatever. If we're seeing still shots of actors in their full costumes acting on set, why can't we comment on those costumes? I mean, we're not expecting (I assume) that like maybe some superhero moves or something, that the costumes are going to be partially CGI and therefore will look better in post, right?


Having seen pics and drawings of the supposed period accurate armour all the history expert nerds are whining should be used instead, I can only say "FUCK YOUR CLOWNSUIT", I will happily take whatever inaccurate bullshit Nolan's guys have come up with instead. All their examples looked like complete shit, and a complete pain in the arse to do anything in.
I think there's a conversation to be had about who a movie like this is for. You can TRY to appeal to the 'common man' for sure -- but are people going to flock to this movie like it's the next Lord of the Rings and bring millions of people to the world of history and myth that weren't already interested or were previously actively disinterested? Probably not.

It's like when Ridley Scott makes a historical movie specifically targeted at fans of history and then ignores the historical advisors and gets upset when the target audience of the movie doesn't like it. Who did you THINK you were making this movie for?

I'd also argue there's a vastness to what could be used in this film beyond maybe just what few pictures or drawings you might have seen, that can look very good. There's space between 'completely historical accurate to the best of our understanding' and 'outlandish fantasy bullshit that looks like it's made of plastic.'


The period-accurate armor looks like when a kid can't afford a certain Halloween costume and has to shoddily make it at home from leftover materials. Like, I get that that's what they had back then, but I feel like if I showed up to a costume party in that, it would only end in me getting an atomic wedgie.
It's hard to comment on that without seeing what you're looking at. But it's worth noting that there are a LOT of enthusiastic reenactors/living history enthusiasts out there that cannot afford really well-made armour, and a lot of it may even be homemade. It may not be representative of what a professional armourer with a budget could make.


Sure, you have the people (nerds) complaining that it's not accurate to the time period, but you'd also have film bros complaining that the accurate thing looks stupid, and honestly, I'd rather listen to the former than the latter.
I wouldn't. Why MAKE historical films and then say 'but the history is stupid so we're not going to use it.'
I want to make a WWII movie, but WWII guns are fucking dumb, so everyone gets sweet-ass SCARs and M249 Paras.


We also have to consider the difference between historically accurate and historically reasonable. For example, Kingdom of Heaven had fantastic costuming. Was it accurate? Technically, no. But it was -close-, and it was paying decent care to being within the realm of what people had. It was just a hundred years off in either direction at times, and had some modern conventions.

Modern conventions you'll probably never escape. I don't think many movies set in 16th century England would honestly attempt to pull off historically accurate codpieces. To a modern eye they just look absolutely ridiculous. But that also doesn't mean you take the ENTIRE wardrobe of a 16th century gentleman and replace it all with something from Sons of Anarchy because 'that looks cooler to me.'

There has to be a balance. And what I think a lot of us on the 'history' side are saying is that there's actually no balance here. It's PURE garbage with no history. And I would 100000% argue for the Philistines here that aren't even into this sort of stuff; Nolan could make those costumes 70% historically plausible and you'd love them and think the movie looks just as cool as you think it looks now.
 
Why?
Genuinely, not like sarcastic or whatever. If we're seeing still shots of actors in their full costumes acting on set, why can't we comment on those costumes? I mean, we're not expecting (I assume) that like maybe some superhero moves or something, that the costumes are going to be partially CGI and therefore will look better in post, right?

I choose to believe strong opinions require strong evidence. A leaked set photo is not that. It's not supposed to be seen, it provides no context, there's no polish, there's no dialogue, there's no VFX, no music, no lighting, no acting, no understanding of how anything you're seeing figures into the final product. It goes back to my point about flooding the discourse about a piece of content (up to) years before it comes out because you've decided you STRONGLY DISLIKE something you barely know anything about. It's like judging a book based on a solitary paragraph from chapter 4.
 
I choose to believe strong opinions require strong evidence. A leaked set photo is not that. It's not supposed to be seen, it provides no context, there's no polish, there's no dialogue, there's no VFX, no music, no lighting, no acting, no understanding of how anything you're seeing figures into the final product. It goes back to my point about flooding the discourse about a piece of content (up to) years before it comes out because you've decided you STRONGLY DISLIKE something you barely know anything about. It's like judging a book based on a solitary paragraph from chapter 4.
I'm not going to attempt to convince you otherwise - how you feel is how you feel. But I definitely don't agree with this logic. You can't criticize a costume because there's no dialogue? You have to admit that's a very particular way to look at things.

I guess I should also point out that this is the only time I've talked publicly about Odyssey thus far - just because it happened to come up. I'm not raging online about how much I hate the movie or anything. But if asked how I feel about what we've seen of the costuming, I'm more than willing to say it looks like shit. Because it does. The costuming (and historicity) of King & Conqueror is trash, but I actually kind of like that show. So, the costuming is not the sum total. It's just a part, and I think you can dislike a part of something without hating the whole thing (AND without seeing/experiencing the whole thing).

I've basically liked every Greek mythology movie ever made, because I'm a huge mark. I expect to like this movie as well. I just doubt I'll ever have anything but strong dislike for the costumes (which is true of pretty much all ancient-themed movies, if I'm being honest).
 
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