Generative AI

[docsilence]

Okay, I'm going to go back to my point again because maybe I'm the one misunderstanding what's happening here. Didn't he specifically say they are NOT using AI to generate any actual art? The last line of his post is weird and confusing, but MY understanding (again, maybe I'm wrong here) was that this was more like using AI tools to do things similar to Googling 'what do medieval swords look like?' and using the answer as reference for your work. IE - ACTUAL AI tools. Is that not what they're doing? Is his post saying they're using AI to create/mine existing art first and then doing more art on their own later?

I need to see all of his original comments. Because first round: dumb. Second round, I'm like oh, they're using it for XYZ. Third read, he mentioned using it for ideation and character concept art. But now I want to actually be sure before I crucify a guy. If it's like, organizing spreadsheets and shit, NBD. If it's for concept art... I mean we all know AI doesn't make anything new, it's working off stolen material, so even that concept art is going to be coming from someone who didn't give permission for it. I think Swen isn't being clear himself which is why I'm annoyed at him, because most CEOs don't seem to be able to articulate that they understand how it all works.

 

[Damien]

I need to see all of his original comments. Because first round: dumb. Second round, I'm like oh, they're using it for XYZ. Third read, he mentioned using it for ideation and character concept art. But now I want to actually be sure before I crucify a guy. If it's like, organizing spreadsheets and shit, NBD. If it's for concept art... I mean we all know AI doesn't make anything new, it's working off stolen material, so even that concept art is going to be coming from someone who didn't give permission for it. I think Swen isn't being clear himself which is why I'm annoyed at him, because most CEOs don't seem to be able to articulate that they understand how it all works.

Yeah, my take on 'AI for concept art' was more organizational than 'we ask AI to make things and then our artists draw those things.' Larian doesn't seem to be a stupid company, and asking your literal team of artists to DRAW what the AI made just seems... stupid, even ignoring the ethical implications of AI. So that's definitely not where my brain went. But I'm open to being wrong about all this.

 

[Fletch]

No, they're using it to generate temp artwork and concept art - all things artists would be hired to do in the past.

At its core, isn't this the same as car makers being replaced by robots and coal miners losing work in a shift to solar? Automation has taken billions of jobs. This just feels different because nobody ever thought creative arts would ever be automated.

I'm not rooting for anybody to lose their jobs, but this isn't the first time it's happened.

 

[docsilence]

At its core, isn't this the same as car makers being replaced by robots and coal miners losing work in a shift to solar? Automation has taken billions of jobs. This just feels different because nobody ever thought creative arts would ever be automated.

I'm not rooting for anybody to lose their jobs, but this isn't the first time it's happened.

See upthread. It's not even remotely the same and at it's core it's not about replacing the labor, it's about how every single one of these engines is built on stolen labor. So it's not a robot taking an artist's job - it's a tech company pillaging the work of thousands of artists, whose work is legally protected, chumming it into a paste and re-selling it to consumers.

It's not a robot replacing a mechanic. It's buying a car from a chop shop that built your new car out of someone else's car's parts. Simple as that. And it's the very fucking core of the problem and why artists are angry. (Proof: again, please see upthread - artists are WINNING suits against these companies over stolen work. It's the greatest single act of intellectual theft in the history of mankind and 99% of the world doesn't get it.

 

[docsilence]

Addendum: the reason people are specifically mad at Swen mentioning concept art - and I want him to REALLY FUCKING CLEARLY explain what he means there so I know if we can trust him or not - is that AI DOES NOT MAKE ANYTHING NEW. If you ask it to generate concept art, it burps out images that are built using art they stole from Tumblr, DeviantArt, artists websites, photo galleries, Instagram, all the places artists were told they NEED TO BE in order to HAVE A CAREER and BE RELEVANT. So it's not making something new - it's giving you remixed work your colleagues did. So if Larian is using AI to generate concept art, they are, in fact, stealing labor... possibly from their own game design colleagues. And I really thought they were smarter than that. Mozilla shooting itself in the dick makes perfect sense to me. PW getting bamboozled by a techbro in publisher's clothing, that's what I expect from them. But Larian, man, you were the chosen one...

Again, sorry if I sound angry about this but I'm burned out. Trying to protect our work from this shit is a third full-time job I don't have the heart for much longer.

 

[Damien]

Oh no, I get the anger and outrage. I think that's why I was quick to assume Larian meant something different from using AI to make art. Because, you know, it's Larian and that seems like pure insanity for a company like them. So my brain immediately went to 'no, it definitely doesn't mean that it means this other thing which also kind of makes sense if you assume he's not really saying it very well or for people that aren't 'in the know' on what they're doing.'

 

[Fletch]

it's about how every single one of these engines is built on stolen labor.

I'm totally on board on that point. Just as I'd said earlier, my sole beef with AI (well, along with resource drain) is that it was made so unethically. I'll march right alongside you in that protest.

It's buying a car from a chop shop that built your new car out of someone else's car's parts.

I'd never seen it from that angle before. Great description and really drives home the issue.

I was speaking very broadly about it, though, leaving source ethics aside. If they'd paid artists to submit work to be incorporated into the learning, for instance, so instead of a chop shop you're buying a car built out of parts bought on eBay, I would say it's comparable to any other firm of automation.

We're obviously past that point, though, so it really is unfair of me to describe it as a hypothetical.

sorry if I sound angry about this but I'm burned out.

Nah, you're fine. That was a really good explanation.

 

[docsilence]

Thanks for tolerating my rants, guys. I realize sometimes this stuff makes me feel my pulse in my eyeballs, that's how much it stresses me out, and I worry that comes out in text in a belligerent way when I'm really just like 'pllllleeeease help your friendly neighborhood artist protect his stuff!"

The chop shop explanation is my best one, honestly, and it occurred to me after I typed that up that the next question is: is a person okay with buying a car made out of stolen parts? I hope most people would be like "this is wrong" but with AI it feels like so many people are actually like "eh, I like my new car." So it's INCREDIBLY stressful.

Not to add to anyone ELSE"s stress, but I just booked an interview with a healthcare expert who has discovered we've hit a thing called "automation complacency," where doctors and nurses are inundated with so much AI slop they aren't fact-checking it which is leading to medical errors and misdiagnoses. He compares it to alarm fatigue (where medics stop hearing alarms cos they hear so many fuckin' alarms - if everything's an emergency then nothing is an emergency!). So today's nightmare is "did your doctor ask ChatGPT about your prescription diagnosis and not check it? Stay tuned!"

(About once a month I do an interview that scares the shit out of me and this is the next one. The last one involved how often hospitals DO NOT replace their mattresses... guys I almost threw up DURING the interview)

 

[docsilence]

I was speaking very broadly about it, though, leaving source ethics aside. If they'd paid artists to submit work to be incorporated into the learning, for instance, so instead of a chop shop you're buying a car built out of parts bought on eBay, I would say it's comparable to any other firm of automation.

This is actually something that comes up a lot - SOME artists and writers would have gladly given their work for training if asked and paid. The main crux of the pain right now is they legit took EVERYBODY's stuff without permission and nobody had a chance to opt out or demand compensation. (I posted up thread about how nine of my twelve novels were found in the Anthropic lawsuit and ChatGPT got all of them and honestly, I don't even care about compensation now... it just felt like they took a piece of my life I can't get back.)

 

[Damien]

I realize sometimes this stuff makes me feel my pulse in my eyeballs

I think I figured out where your eyesight issues are coming from, as a totally unrelated note.

Not to add to anyone ELSE"s stress, but I just booked an interview with a healthcare expert who has discovered we've hit a thing called "automation complacency," where doctors and nurses are inundated with so much AI slop they aren't fact-checking it which is leading to medical errors and misdiagnoses. He compares it to alarm fatigue (where medics stop hearing alarms cos they hear so many fuckin' alarms - if everything's an emergency then nothing is an emergency!). So today's nightmare is "did your doctor ask ChatGPT about your prescription diagnosis and not check it? Stay tuned!"

My wife regularly has the issue here that she cannot get help because nothing that's wrong with her is easy to plug into Google Search or an AI engine to solve. This is very much a real problem and it's been here for at least a couple of years.

 

[docsilence]

We should chat about our partners' respective journeys. Steph had a smorgasbord of random health issues for decades until she was diagnosed with EDS and suddenly ALL of her weird shit made sense and was interconnected. She was so early on in the discovery of EDS her doctors use her as a test case - they ask HER how she treats HERSELF because none of the doctors she meets are ready to deal with it. (She's also become the most badass self-advocate for insurance coverage I've ever seen.)

 

[Chooch555]

Just looked up EDS. That sounds awful. Despite every dollar I've made in the last 20 years coming from healthcare, I'd find a new industry in a second if we could just fix the damn thing.

 

[Damien]

We should chat about our partners' respective journeys. Steph had a smorgasbord of random health issues for decades until she was diagnosed with EDS and suddenly ALL of her weird shit made sense and was interconnected. She was so early on in the discovery of EDS her doctors use her as a test case - they ask HER how she treats HERSELF because none of the doctors she meets are ready to deal with it. (She's also become the most badass self-advocate for insurance coverage I've ever seen.)

My daughter has EDS and it's likely my wife does as well (went undiagnosed and now it's just part of the giant puzzle that has become her health issues and it's hard to parse out what's causing what). Obviously, this stuff presents differently in different people, and has different impacts. So I can't know exactly what Steph's life has been like, but even at its BEST outcomes I'm sure things have been extremely difficult. I'm living it twice over, so I get it.

 

[docsilence]

My daughter has EDS and it's likely my wife does as well (went undiagnosed and now it's just part of the giant puzzle that has become her health issues and it's hard to parse out what's causing what). Obviously, this stuff presents differently in different people, and has different impacts. So I can't know exactly what Steph's life has been like, but even at its BEST outcomes I'm sure things have been extremely difficult. I'm living it twice over, so I get it.

Steph, her sister, and both her nieces have it and it varies wildly between them (her older niece's case is most like her own; her sister's has damn near killed her twice, but she has the "bad" kind according to her tests.) If you ever need to trade war stories let me know. It's funny, Steph says I can now spot someone with EDS on sight because I've been with her so long (I'm sure you can too) so when I hear someone say they have XYZ issues my first thought is: bet they have EDS and don't know it yet. It's almost always the "everything is fucked up and nobody will do anything about it" isn't it?

Just looked up EDS. That sounds awful. Despite every dollar I've made in the last 20 years coming from healthcare, I'd find a new industry in a second if we could just fix the damn thing.

It's tough. Steph has great doctors but for the most part EDS could be defined as the "nobody listens to women" disease.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

We should chat about our partners' respective journeys. Steph had a smorgasbord of random health issues for decades until she was diagnosed with EDS and suddenly ALL of her weird shit made sense and was interconnected. She was so early on in the discovery of EDS her doctors use her as a test case - they ask HER how she treats HERSELF because none of the doctors she meets are ready to deal with it. (She's also become the most badass self-advocate for insurance coverage I've ever seen.)

My sister has EDS as well. I thought she was making up her illnesses for a while because it seemed impossible that anyone could be that sick.

It's almost always the "everything is fucked up and nobody will do anything about it" isn't it?

Apt.