General Marvel Legends

Damien said:
It isn't -necessary- to show someone's brains being blown out of their head. Some movies will happily show that for reasons (there are good ones and bad ones) and some won't. Violence is a great comparison because A) fewer people seem upset about violence than about sex, which is a whole conversation, and B) the amount of it you show isn't usually strictly plot-relevant, but it IS relevant to the work overall. Sometimes it's just about being titillating, but that speaks to the work as well.
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I think there also should be a limit to the violence depicted in comics, as once again younger kids can become more disturbed than we realize when seeing some images. I don't think it is puritanical to recognize that there are some things children don't think about and don't need to process until they get older. Especially with violence, as even teens don't always have the empathy yet to disentangle violence as spectacle from real world violence as pain and fear.
 
Damien said:
Do pre-teens often think about dressing up as a clown and beating a child-acrobat to death with a crowbar? Asking for an angry orphan.
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No, but pre-teens are more likely to have experienced physical bullying and altercations amongst their peers, so I do think the concept that violence is bad is something they can relate to more than why adults have sex.
 
That scene with Hank and Jan was the first thing I thought of and I knew someone would post it. If that were a scene in, say, The Boys it would make sense because that was always a book for adults that aimed to shock. With characters people have been reading about for decades, most likely since they were children, it came off creepy and embarrassing. You could show Hank and Jan in bed to show their reconciliation without shoehorning weird kinkiness into it just for shock value.
 
Damien said:
I think we might often find, if we are truly honest with ourselves, that it has more to do with 'The West' having a very Puritanical view of sex that has ingrained itself in society so strongly that it can even impact those of us that are less/not religious.
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A *very* important point.

Another important difference between specially on-screen nudity and specifically on-screen violence (as opposed to when drawn in a comic, I’m talking live action here) is that while violence is (or at least should be) totally simulated, nudity (barring stuff like The Substance) and a fair amount of sexual activity (kissing, touching, whatever happens “in the frame”) are fictional in terms of *intent* but real in terms of specific action.
That guy isn’t really getting his brains blown out, but those two people are *actually* naked and doing whatever we see them doing. Doesn’t mean one is “better” or “worse”, but it isn’t exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.
 
fac said:
I think there also should be a limit to the violence depicted in comics, as once again younger kids can become more disturbed than we realize when seeing some images. I don't think it is puritanical to recognize that some things children don't think about and don't need to process until they get older. Especially with violence, as even teens don't always have the empathy yet to disentangle violence as spectacle from real world violence as pain and fear.
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To be clear, I'm not exempting myself from this line of conversation. I did a lot of the same stuff as other regular folks do as a parent. My kids weren't watching Eyes Wide Shut at age 7. My son is 11 and has not been allowed to watch movies with sex scenes, but I have allowed him to watch Mortal Kombat.
I'm not JUDGING anyone in saying these things. More ruminating on why it is we're all like this.

Also, whenever we talk about limiting anything, I generally disagree. Because I don't really agree with putting limits on art. Let people make what they want and you decide how/when/if to consume that art. In this case, I think it's more than perfectly acceptable for there to be comic books aimed at adults the same way there are movies, cartoons, and video games aimed at adults (nominally, at least).


fac said:
No, but pre-teens are more likely to have experienced physical bullying and altercations amongst their peers, so I do think the concept that violence is bad is something they can relate to more than why adults have sex.
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I think that's skirting the issue, though. You can do 'violence is bad' without 'adolescent being brutally beaten with a crowbar.' But, to my point, we are far more permissive with how and when we accept violence, and to what level, compared to sex.
 
AceofKnaves said:
Another important difference between specially on-screen nudity and specifically on-screen violence (as opposed to when drawn in a comic, I’m talking live action here) is that while violence is (or at least should be) totally simulated, nudity (barring stuff like The Substance) and a fair amount of sexual activity (kissing, touching, whatever happens “in the frame”) are fictional in terms of *intent* but real in terms of specific action.
That guy isn’t really getting his brains blown out, but those two people are *actually* naked and doing whatever we see them doing. Doesn’t mean one is “better” or “worse”, but it isn’t exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.
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I almost wrote this same point - I also think that the film industry hasn't exactly been coy about the fact that showing attractive people naked is a marketing point they promote, so even if part of the plot (in the best intentions), it still can come across (to me at least) as being pandering to the audience.
 
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TheGillMan said:
Well, I'm not sure removing the Limbo stuff really counts. Illyana didn't magically turn older in seconds...she actually lived for years in Limbo, and when she returns as a young woman she has maturity and experience. Kitty's interactions with her prior to her going into Limbo are very much appropriate, and the dynamic between them changes after that point. From Kitty's point of view, Illyana is almost a brand new person she is meeting for the first time. Sure, she knows on an intellectual level that this is the little girl she befriended, but the Illyana that comes out of Limbo is completely different and possibly older than Kitty physically and emotionally.
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I can only hear

 
Damien said:
Also, whenever we talk about limiting anything, I generally disagree. Because I don't really agree with putting limits on art. Let people make what they want and you decide how/when/if to consume that art.
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I agree - not saying there should be laws, but I also think as a creator, you need to know who your audience is for the media you are creating. If I was deciding to make my living creating comics, I'd limit what I put in those comics because I'd want them to be consumable by a 10 year-old me.

And to be clear, I wasn't defending crow-bar beating, as much as saying that the concept of hurting others is bad is a known thing to kids, while having sex is good is not yet on their radar. That makes violence a more relatable story point than sex for them.
 
An important point re: what “kids” are and are not ready for, and to bring it back to LGBTQ+ representation in media:

Frequently, when working with parents regarding LGBTQ+ youth, I hear “it’s not that I object, it’s just that some things aren’t for kids, they aren’t ready to deal with that yet and I don’t feel comfortable having ‘that talk’ yet”, to which I reply “fair enough, but if we are going to be fair by your definition and get all ‘that stuff’ out of kids’ way, we have to take out the heteronormative relationship/sex stuff as well, and that means no fairy tales, nothing where people kiss or get married or have children at all, so how would you like to approach that?”
 
fac said:
I agree - not saying there should be laws, but I also think as a creator, you need to know who your audience is for the media you are creating. If I was deciding to make my living creating comics, I'd limit what I put in those comics because I'd want them to be consumable by a 10 year-old me.

And to be clear, I wasn't defending crow-bar beating, as much as saying that the concept of hurting others is bad is a known thing to kids, while having sex is good is not yet on their radar.
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What if you wanted to make your living creating comics for adults? I agree you have to tailor to your audience, but I think -most- of the time artists do exactly that. I have to believe that boob window costumes and perfectly drawn spandex-clad bums were done by people that knew exactly who their audience was.
 
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Damien said:
What if you wanted to make your living creating comics for adults? I agree you have to tailor to your audience, but I think -most- of the time artists do exactly that. I have to believe that boob window costumes and perfectly drawn spandex-clad bums were done by people that knew exactly who their audience was.
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I remember watching the Adam West Batman and even at 7 or 8 liking the Catwoman and Batgirl episodes, but not really having any inkling as to what thinking Batgirl was pretty meant in a practical sense, compared to more specific thoughts a 15 year old me might have had about Batgirl.

My point being that kids can relate to seeing attractive people without it being a sexual fantasy.

AceofKnaves said:
Frequently, when working with parents regarding LGBTQ+ youth, I hear “it’s not that I object, it’s just that some things aren’t for kids, they aren’t ready to deal with that yet and I don’t feel comfortable having ‘that talk’ yet”, to which I reply “fair enough, but if we are going to be fair by your definition and get all ‘that stuff’ out of kids’ way, we have to take out the heteronormative relationship/sex stuff as well, and that means no fairy tales, nothing where people kiss or get married or have children at all, so how would you like to approach that?”
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I get this as well, and wonder about it. Personally I think for kids 8 and under that bringing up things about human relationships they do not see around them is more likely to cause confusion more than anything - if their world includes same-sex parents, divorced parents, sickness, death, adopted kids, kids from single parent homes - then it needs to be talked about but if not, then wait a bit longer until you have the reasoning skills to understand that there are people with different life experiences out there. Before that, your world is just your world and you often don't notice that it is different for others - for better, worse, or just different.
 
I think you could make a good argument that 'only teach them what's in their direct view while they're young' is part of what creates bigoted, close-minded people that believe the way they live and the way their society directly around them is structured is the 'right' way and everyone else's way is 'foreign/different.'
 
So there is a place for "mature" content in comics for sure... and Marvel's MAX line was an example of trying that. But I began reading X-Men at six years old and fell in love with all of these characters before I hit double digits in age. And so for mainstream continuity I think they should try to engage with as broad an audience as they can and lean away from overt sexual content.

I do understand the point about being more accepting of violence, and that is true, but since no character stays hurt for too long and no major character ever actually dies the violence in comics is one step above Loony Tunes...

And to be very clear my desire for less overt sexual content in my comics isn't a call for characters to go back in the closet.... sexual identity is not the same as sexual acts and I have no issue with characters being able to express who they are - I just don't need to see any of them - straight, gay, bi, poly, - naked.

And I want to emphasize my desire for less overt sex in my superhero comics is not primarily rooted in a desire to protect kids but rather that I feel most of the time its included to be provocative or salacious and is unnecessary and I would personally prefer not to see it there.

I prefer to see boobies and butts up close and personal 😉
 
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