Articulated Thoughts General Movie News & Discussion

TheSameIdiot said:
I think this is why a third of the audience jumped off after Endgame.
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Yep. I think they knew that would happen, which is why they tried to mix the new character introductions into the legacy characters films/series - continuing the TV series analogy, characters like Iron Heart in BP 2, America in MoM, Yelena in BW, Cassie in Quantomania and Kate in Hawkeye were like "backdoor pilots" for those characters to spin off.

The MCU is really unique in film history, so navigating through what was truly a climax of a dozen years to transitioning to the series continuing while introducing new characters was unchartered waters.

I think they needed to pick a lane - introduce the members of the eventual Young Avengers and Thunderbolts, while concluding/backburnering the stories of the main Avengers from Phase 1-3, and get those new teams established, before branching out to the standalones like Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang-Chi. I think if Phase 4-5 has just been "Passing the torch" moments and building the new teams, then we'd be coming up on Doomsday with a Young Avengers formed and a New Avengers (Thunderbolts) formed that fans could focus on. Right now I don't think anyone really knows (in story terms, not casting leaks) who is going to be the hero focus for Doomsday - the legacy ones - Hulk, Ant-Man, Wasp, Sam Cap, Strange, Spidey, Hawkeye; the outcasts - Thunderbolts; the new kids - Shuri, Kamala, Kate, Jen, America, Monica, Cassie, etc... That is already enough without adding Eternals, Shang-Chi or adding FF and X-Men.

I just think the plot may have gotten away from them in that casual fans new the dozen main characters in IW and Endgame (Avengers plus Guardians) going in. I can't even remember all the options they have now as I typed this up. It is exactly why the comic book big crossovers got unwieldy - you can't follow 25+ protagonists and have them have meaningful stories, instead they just become cogs in the story.

Basically, this isn't a villain problem, it is a too many heroes problem.
 
fac said:
I think they needed to pick a lane - introduce the members of the eventual Young Avengers and Thunderbolts, while concluding/backburnering the stories of the main Avengers from Phase 1-3, and get those new teams established, before branching out to the standalones like Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang-Chi. I think if Phase 4-5 has just been "Passing the torch" moments and building the new teams, then we'd be coming up on Doomsday with a Young Avengers formed and a New Avengers (Thunderbolts) formed that fans could focus on. Right now I don't think anyone really knows (in story terms, not casting leaks) who is going to be the hero focus for Doomsday - the legacy ones - Hulk, Ant-Man, Wasp, Sam Cap, Strange, Spidey, Hawkeye; the outcasts - Thunderbolts; the new kids - Shuri, Kamala, Kate, Jen, America, Monica, Cassie, etc... That is already enough without adding Eternals, Shang-Chi or adding FF and X-Men.

I just think the plot may have gotten away from them in that casual fans new the dozen main characters in IW and Endgame (Avengers plus Guardians) going in. I can't even remember all the options they have now as I typed this up. It is exactly why the comic book big crossovers got unwieldy - you can't follow 25+ protagonists and have them have meaningful stories, instead they just become cogs in the story.
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It's clear to me that one of the biggest hurdles in the MCU, conceptually, is something Disney refuses to even acknowledge: comic characters don't age and actors do, and so do movie audiences. You just don't HAVE 18 years to tell a linear story in movie form. These are comic characters, but you cannot treat a movie franchise as if it's just a live action comic book. It's a different medium with different strengths and weaknesses.
 
Damien said:
It's clear to me that one of the biggest hurdles in the MCU, conceptually, is something Disney refuses to even acknowledge: comic characters don't age and actors do, and so do movie audiences. You just don't HAVE 18 years to tell a linear story in movie form.
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I think they planned to put the Phase 1-3 heroes out to pasture, but weren't decisive enough about it.

So when they overloaded the audience with the new heroes and that was met with some apathy, they came to the conclusion that the fans don't want to see new characters and were still invested in the old ones - which is partly true - but not the right conclusion, because (I feel) that they introduced too many and didn't more clearly put the old guard on the shelf and say in storytelling terms "these are the new 6 leads of the MCU".
 
fac said:
I think they planned to put the Phase 1-3 heroes out to pasture, but weren't decisive enough about it.

So when they overloaded the audience with the new heroes and that was met with some apathy, they came to the conclusion that the fans don't want to see new characters and were still invested in the old ones - which is partly true - but not the right conclusion, because (I feel) that they introduced too many and didn't more clearly put the old guard on the shelf and say in storytelling terms "these are the new 6 leads of the MCU".
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Definitely agree here. The classic 'they wanted their cake and to eat it, too.' And there was definitely too much throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. Too much ongoing market-testing to see which characters we liked better before committing to someone. They forget that when the first IM movie came out, Iron Man wasn't even REALLY a top-tier Marvel character anymore and there was no guarantee anyone would give a shit.
And if you tell us we don't really need to care about these new characters.. we won't. Not being willing to commit to the new characters sends a clear subtext to the viewer that it's a character not -worth- committing to.
 
fac said:
I think they needed to pick a lane - introduce the members of the eventual Young Avengers and Thunderbolts, while concluding/backburnering the stories of the main Avengers from Phase 1-3, and get those new teams established, before branching out to the standalones like Eternals, Moon Knight, Shang-Chi.
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I very disagree. I think the Multiverse era needed to start establishing its own identity early on. I really did enjoy (most of) those transition shows where we have the Phase 1's leading a show that introduces the Phase 4's, but there's real value in hitting that first year with brand new franchises like Shang-Chi and Eternals.

Seriously, I don't think I could take five years of just young women who are fans of previous heroes and damaged people who become shittier versions of previous heroes. For sure get those new characters introduced so you can start your Thunderbolts and Young Avengers productions, but I don't want to have to wait for new ideas.


Damien said:
You just don't HAVE 18 years to tell a linear story in movie form.
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This is really true. I figure that's why this Saga is half the length of the previous one; they're racing to get to the point where they can still use their nostalgia actors before they age out entirely. And not for nothing, at best movies are one episode per year. You're not going to get to explore all of, say, the Fantastic Four's library of villains.
 
Chooch555 said:

Feels like they understood the assignment.
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From what I could pick out of the dim rooms and backlighting, it looks like they *exactly* understood the assignment.

I'm not the biggest Street Fighter fan, but even I recognized the car smashing bit.


Speaking of which, has everybody seen the videos where Pete Holmes is auditing the tournament?
 
I think it would also benefit them to, if they're introducing a new team, to just start with the team assembled. As fun as it can be to meet each of them individually and get to know them, we don't need it. We can see their dynamic in the team easy enough with a well written scene. There just needs to be forward momentum- not introducing one team member in a movie, then hinting at a team, then getting two more movies where we hint even more at the team, then a movie bringing everyone together where the team isn't really a team until the end, and then we get the fully established team in the next one. We've done that a few times now, we get how these things work. That works fine enough in comics where there's a new issue every month, but when you take a year or more in between each one, it drags out and people lose interest, or people age out of the roles and the storyline goes nowhere. Audiences nowadays are smart enough to know that a team is a team- we don't need the origins for every single one. Bring back the little webisodes if there's pertinent information you have to tell the audience, or film a little short to play before the movie.
 
Fletch said:
From what I could pick out of the dim rooms and backlighting, it looks like they *exactly* understood the assignment.

I'm not the biggest Street Fighter fan, but even I recognized the car smashing bit.


Speaking of which, has everybody seen the videos where Pete Holmes is auditing the tournament?
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I love those Street Fighter sketches.
joshsquash729 said:
I think it would also benefit them to, if they're introducing a new team, to just start with the team assembled. As fun as it can be to meet each of them individually and get to know them, we don't need it. We can see their dynamic in the team easy enough with a well written scene. There just needs to be forward momentum- not introducing one team member in a movie, then hinting at a team, then getting two more movies where we hint even more at the team, then a movie bringing everyone together where the team isn't really a team until the end, and then we get the fully established team in the next one. We've done that a few times now, we get how these things work. That works fine enough in comics where there's a new issue every month, but when you take a year or more in between each one, it drags out and people lose interest, or people age out of the roles and the storyline goes nowhere. Audiences nowadays are smart enough to know that a team is a team- we don't need the origins for every single one. Bring back the little webisodes if there's pertinent information you have to tell the audience, or film a little short to play before the movie.
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I like this idea. Since you don't have to sell an audience on an untested concept, start with the team dynamic in place. Then spin off. Sort of the X-Men way. I think new characters should also be coming in on solo stories so you aren't putting all your eggs into that basket, but it would allow you to demo a lot of new characters at once and then use audience reaction to see who gets a spinoff first.

I think you could have Hulk there as the one passing the team torch to the whole group. He's their guy in the chair.
 
joshsquash729 said:
I think it would also benefit them to, if they're introducing a new team, to just start with the team assembled.
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I don't know. There was definitely some magic in seeing characters with their own stories and supporting casts teaming up every few years. While I can't say I want to see a solo USAgent movie, fer instance (and he's my favorite Thunderbolt), having all the characters who would become 'Bolts being introduced in other events before coming together was the next best thing.

I'll meet you half way. Give me a slow rollout of Thunderbolts characters who have to go through the struggle of even becoming a team, and I'll let you start with a fully formed Young Avengers team. Probably best to get them together while they're still young anyways, right?
 
Fletch said:
And not for nothing, at best movies are one episode per year. You're not going to get to explore all of, say, the Fantastic Four's library of villains.
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Sure you can - First Steps did this. Completely fulfilling montage, baby! That was so overstuffed they even had to delete a villain! And then they only mentioned others by name but they for sure fit them in! So fun!!

/sarcasm
 
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