Four Horsemen Studios Mythic Legions

[Damien]

I still think it is firstly an attempt to create some sort of IP, and secondly a reason to re-release figures and accessories as part of any future expansion.

Could be so. But if true, it's literally the worst way to do that in 2026. TTRPG IPs aren't exactly lighting the world on fire. Even Forgotten Realms, after the massive success of the BGIII video game, isn't getting tons of traction elsewhere except, maybe, a BGIII-specific TV show (meaning, someone wants those characters, but the FR IP itself isn't seen as particularly valuable on its own).

The 4H are 'artists' and toy creators. If they were smart, they'd release a big ass ART BOOK of all their characters and setting junk, and intersperse it with lore dumps. Kind of like George Martin's big ass Westeros encyclopedia he did some years back. Basically a guaranteed sale to your core audience, grows the lore, and doesn't really ask anything of the customer. You can just read it. You're not pretending that you expect these people to play an involved, multi-hour per week social game with their action figures. And you're not pretending you know how to do something as complex as creating 5E D&D rules.

Golf being one of those things I find even more boring...

Genuinely upset to hear D&D be called boring, but then you became my friend again with your dislike of golf.

I will say if I was still at my old organization which had a few action figure collectors, I suspect I would at least ask them if they were interested in going in on this as a group and possibly try the game. Because the concept, as someone who isn't into these things normally, has some appeal to me - but I do not have a group to play it with.

Sure, but how many of them would say 'yes?' And, critically, how likely is it that it would go anywhere? Because you really have to keep in mind that getting someone to play a game is 1/1000th of the battle. If you only care that someone tries it, you're admitting that it's a gimmick and -you- don't care about it. What you want is continuous engagement. And that can be really difficult even for dedicated gaming companies putting out top tier material, as @docsilence has intimated already.

I have to wonder how many people who have bought into this thing have bought into an RPG KS before. Because one of the first things that stands out to me is that there's no link to a short demo module or even a gameplay example, like the kind of thing you'd get in any crowdfunding project for a new system.

Yeah, I noticed that. This is, ostensibly, a TTRPG Kickstarter with some action figure rewards, but the ENTIRETY of the focus is on the action figures and the game elements themselves are barely worth calling a footnote.
Maybe because the 4H are carpet bagger clowns that just want to exist in every space because it's the only way they can find enough storage space for their egos.

I own enough of them that @Damien would absolutely make fun of me for it.

HEY... I would only do that behind your back.

The action figures look beautiful, but the game content is vapor.

Agreed. This is very clearly an action figure Kickstarter. Like I said above, it's just a perfect example of the 4H being so narcissistic as to think they simply belong in every hobby.

I CACKLED at this. Brutal drive-by and so true

No one is safe from me!

The thing is, they chose to make a D&D fork and contrary to a lot of popular belief, D&D is not a new player friendly game. Like, at all. It's famous and popular, but almost every other ttrpg system out there is easier to learn. Especially true if it's come out in the last 20 or so years. So in a very real way they've picked a system that is almost hostile to new players if they don't have a chaperone (because that's how most folks get into D&D specifically, they have a friend who already does it teach them).

100%
Choosing 5E as a base system for your game tells me that you either do not know what you are doing, or you are marketing your material at existing, current players. If the 4H are hoping to onboard new fans, they're doing it wrong. If they're marketing this at existing gamers, they're doing it wrong. They're dumb in two directions.

Look, I know myself. I had reapermini.com open on my browser when Damien fired that shot. I'm trying to find a goddamned wizard who looks like a trash mummy for SOMEONE

I used to play a wargame that had these mummy sorcerers in it. I'll see if I can remember what it was called and if the minis are still out there somewhere. Warhammer Old World has some, but they're definitely very clearly monsters and barely even qualify as looking like mummies anymore. The current model range are more like zombie pharoahs.

If you start with D&D and don't have an experienced DM at your table... good luck.

I think that's the funniest part about all this. Even if this giant pile of vapourware nonsense materializes as an actual useable product and someone gets interested in it, the system they're choosing will probably crush that person unless they get an experienced player/DM to teach them. And if they already have access to that person, they've probably already chosen NOT to play TTRPGs in the first place.

That's an interesting point, partly because Lucasfilm used West End Games in the late 80's and 90's to get a lot of background lore out there - lots of character, place and vehicle names as well as timelines were first introduced or organized in their game materials, and many people bought those guides not to play the game but to enhance their Star Wars fandom during the time when the Expanded Universe was just starting in books and comics. I could see many fans of the ML toys interested in the book not so much for the game but for the information.

People did this with MERP (Middle-earth Roleplaying Game) as well. Even though it's looked down on nowadays because a lot of the lore in those books is totally made up and, in some cases, directly contradicts Tolkien's actual work; it represented a MASSIVE trove of Middle-earth lore and artwork. I've known probably two dozen people that owned loads of MERP books. I've met one person in my life that ever played the game.

But as I mentioned above - THESE days there's better outlets for getting out your art and lore than pretending you suddenly care about TTRPGs.

That was me and my friends, but back in 1980 when Advanced D&D was still new. As 7th/8th graders didn't hold our interest. Tried again maybe 10 years later, still didn't work out. I suspect there are some folks like me that was intrigued but never intrigued enough, who at the right time might have thought they'd give this game a try.

I often wonder how many more people we'd have in the space, having a good time, with a better system for finding people to teach you the game, who were also better equipped to choose the right game for you. The fact is, D&D itself is not the 'right' game for plenty of people. That's why so many alternatives* exist and, if not flourish, manage to carry on.
*By alternatives I just mean 'other TTRPGs' - not necessarily TTRPGs that are specifically trying to be some variation on the D&D formula.

 

[JakeEkiss]

Tried again maybe 10 years later, still didn't work out. I suspect there are some folks like me that was intrigued but never intrigued enough, who at the right time might have thought they'd give this game a try.

There's also a lot of folks for whom D&D just isn't the right ttrpg. It's assumed as the default entry point because it's the name brand, but there's loads of folks I'd recommend other games to.

 

[docsilence]

Those of us who are very into the TTRPG stuff have the experience to say what -gets people into TTRPGs-.

This is why I'm kinda dunking on the campaign while also admitting I'm digging the figures. I literally onboard so many people into TTRPGs I have to turn people away. I have a wait list. I have a pretty good idea what people bounce off of and what makes lifelong gamers out of them. If the 4H campaign did any of those things I'd be truly impressed. There's just nothing there. They've absolutely put their thinking into how to sell the toys and not about how to draw in players.

I quite like the owlbear. I got it in white and brown and bought extras when they went on clearance to make a black one and maybe customize a great horned owl or perhaps a grey screech owl.

I really like the owlbear and have both! I just find it looks a little more toy-ish compared to the figures that came out in the same line.

I'll trash my carefully curated toy D&D party the second someone announces Baldur's Gate 3 figures. Fuck off, Mythic Legions. I have a Lae'zel now.

But like, what if they gave them the kind of love they gave to Classified? I

I would preorder classified-level BG3 figures so fast I'd sprain a wrist. Hell, I'd do that for Legends-level quality, don't even need Classified's depth of detail. Just good figures that work and don't fall apart when you take them out of the box like the movie figures did, or are barely articulated like Super7, or are fucking enormous like NECA.

That's an interesting point, partly because Lucasfilm used West End Games in the late 80's and 90's to get a lot of background lore out there - lots of character, place and vehicle names as well as timelines were first introduced or organized in their game materials, and many people bought those guides not to play the game but to enhance their Star Wars fandom during the time when the Expanded Universe was just starting in books and comics. I could see many fans of the ML toys interested in the book not so much for the game but for the information.


That was me and my friends, but back in 1980 when Advanced D&D was still new. As 7th/8th graders didn't hold our interest. Tried again maybe 10 years later, still didn't work out. I suspect there are some folks like me that was intrigued but never intrigued enough, who at the right time might have thought they'd give this game a try.

Star Wars is a perfect example because there's been multiple truly fun TTRPGs set there (I've played three plus the 5e reskin fans made) but the franchise to TTRPG player pipeline is VERY narrow. And that's with one of the biggest fanbases in the world. When last I looked at the stats, Star Wars TTRPGs made up less than 1% of players (top three are always some combination of D&D various editions, then Pathfinder or Call of Cthulhu, sometimes you get some White Wolf games with a couple of percentage points, and Shadowdark which is really just no-bullshit-D&D is a growing crowd - hell, Mythic Legions might've done better to use Shadowdark rules, but that game is less about being a big damned hero and more like chewing through player characters before you get into character).

And yeah, not just D&D but most RPGs I think the best way in is with a tour guide who LOVES the game and inspires you to stay. A shitty GM will bounce people off it. Getting lost in the rules will bounce people off it. Onboarding is a skill and an art. There's a reason there's like a whole cottage industry of how to be a good GM.

I could see many fans of the ML toys interested in the book not so much for the game but for the information.

If they were putting out a lore book I could see it being a fun little nice-to-have for fans. They've got their 101 pages online, so if they expanded that sure, why not. I think a lot of folks buy TTRPG books for the expanded lore. I know some folks who bought the Cosmere game knowing full well they'll never play it but just wanted the content in the books for their own entertainment. The ALIEN RPG has some amazing lore to read through even if you never play it.

HEY... I would only do that behind your back.

Sometimes I will go "okay, I know exactly how Damien is going to bust my balls for this post" and hit send anyway. Speaking of which I need to swap out Orso's mini for one with better hair.

 

[docsilence]

There's also a lot of folks for whom D&D just isn't the right ttrpg. It's assumed as the default entry point because it's the name brand, but there's loads of folks I'd recommend other games to.

Adding that onboarding new players is hard and sometimes it's just easier to get someone into TTRPGs with a system you're comfortable with. I now have an easier time teaching 5e than I do Vaesen even though Vaesen is infinitely simpler.

And truly can't underestimate brand recognition. I've bought games for players I know they love - Fallout, Dune, fucking Star Trek which I'm not even that into, bought it FOR THEM - and nine times out of ten they'd rather do D&D because it's familiar. "How does Star Trek become D&D?" Well, it's completely different and suddenly the table turns into Will:

Dnd Stranger Things GIF - Dnd Stranger things - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

 

[Alt]

Genuine curiousity:

Fair, and to be honest there are few things I find more boring than D&D (granted it has been a long time)...

Is it D&D systems and setting in particular or tabletop RPG?

 

[superdoug55]

I just cannot seem to get excited over the game aspect. I feel like if I am going to back a game I would be backing the Foes of Middle-Earth one on Kickstarter right now. I am probably biased due to my love of Middle-Earth but it just seems like it would be more fun to play and all the unlocks are added to the all in versus having to shell out more money when things are unlocked. For me the appeal of the 4H Kickstarter is definitely the figures but I am not as excited about the figures as I have been for their previous Kickstarters so I haven’t decided if I am backing this one yet.

 

[Damien]

This is why I'm kinda dunking on the campaign while also admitting I'm digging the figures. I literally onboard so many people into TTRPGs I have to turn people away. I have a wait list. I have a pretty good idea what people bounce off of and what makes lifelong gamers out of them. If the 4H campaign did any of those things I'd be truly impressed. There's just nothing there. They've absolutely put their thinking into how to sell the toys and not about how to draw in players.

I'm on record as thinking the 4H are cunts. But I feel like I gotta be clear that this isn't about that. When I was hard-stanning for Boss Fight, I would have said the same stuff if they decided to randomly make a video game or TTRPG and did it like the Horsemen have approached both things. So this isn't just 'hey, I hate the 4H so let's shit on them over anything and everything.' This is because they're legitimately doing something dumb in a place where they really don't belong.

Sometimes I will go "okay, I know exactly how Damien is going to bust my balls for this post" and hit send anyway. Speaking of which I need to swap out Orso's mini for one with better hair.

I appreciate your respect for my commitment to having the best hair in any room I enter.

 

[fac]

Is it D&D systems and setting in particular or tabletop RPG?

For context I am old, and got involved when D&D was actually a new thing back in the late 70's/early 80's (it really took off with the Advanced D&D book in 77 or so). I may have been too young, or as others have mentioned we didn't really have good Game Masters, or maybe we should have started with the Basic, but at 12 years old are you going to play basic or assume you want to play the real, advanced game?

But at that time there were no game stores, no places (at least near me) to go play, everyone was learning it at the same time, so you basically had the Player guide and the DM guide and your friends to try to get into it - and we probably weren't dedicated enough to become good at it to really enjoy it. So I think I sort of missed the window or never had the right group, it was not popular at my college as far as I can recall, and my next attempt was the early-90's and that also fizzled.

So I am sure that what is modern TTRPG is vastly different than what I was trying to engage with. And honestly I probably don't have the patience for really long games anyway - I totally understand the appeal in terms of the concept and it should be something I'd like, which is why I get intrigued by it now and then (like this one), but in practice it doesn't click.

 

[docsilence]

I'm on record as thinking the 4H are cunts. But I feel like I gotta be clear that this isn't about that. When I was hard-stanning for Boss Fight, I would have said the same stuff if they decided to randomly make a video game or TTRPG and did it like the Horsemen have approached both things. So this isn't just 'hey, I hate the 4H so let's shit on them over anything and everything.' This is because they're legitimately doing something dumb in a place where they really don't belong.

I appreciate your respect for my commitment to having the best hair in any room I enter.

Yeah, it's not even about the figures for me. The figures on offer are fine. But it's like...okay like WENDY'S seemed to have put more effort into their 5e game than this. (Wendy's 5e was a fucking riot, I think I still have a copy of their free download somewhere. You could tell the team who wrote it loved it.) That's what's bugging me. It reminds me of something over in my author life - people will try go get in on the hot new genre without reading, understanding, respecting, and honestly loving that genre and not understand why it doesn't connect with new readers. Or they'll think their take is better than anyone else's because they don't engage with the genre in a meaningful way. This feels like that. It's a space with a strong community and very specific desires, and the KS feels like they just blundered into a party thinking they don't have to learn anyone's names. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm also just jealous of your hair.

But at that time there were no game stores, no places (at least near me) to go play, everyone was learning it at the same time, so you basically had the Player guide and the DM guide and your friends to try to get into it - and we probably weren't dedicated enough to become good at it to really enjoy it. So I think I sort of missed the window or never had the right group, it was not popular at my college as far as I can recall, and my next attempt was the early-90's and that also fizzled.

All TTRPGs are so deeply dependent on the group you're with and how you're introduced to it. I know so many people who bounced off it as kids because of the situation they experienced with it. One of the things I do a lot of now is run games for 50-plus women who felt like they couldn't enjoy the games because of the sexism of the 80s when they wanted to play and they LOVE it now. Maybe half my players are middle-aged women who felt like it wasn't for them.

But the group thing matters a lot, too. I've actually sunset tables / groups not because people were bad but because the vibe just wasn't there. The right group of people it's the best thing in the world, the wrong group it's just a bunch of numbers on a piece of paper.

 

[Damien]

For context I am old, and got involved when D&D was actually a new thing back in the late 70's/early 80's (it really took off with the Advanced D&D book in 77 or so). I may have been too young, or as others have mentioned we didn't really have good Game Masters, or maybe we should have started with the Basic, but at 12 years old are you going to play basic or assume you want to play the real, advanced game?

But at that time there were no game stores, no places (at least near me) to go play, everyone was learning it at the same time, so you basically had the Player guide and the DM guide and your friends to try to get into it - and we probably weren't dedicated enough to become good at it to really enjoy it. So I think I sort of missed the window or never had the right group, it was not popular at my college as far as I can recall, and my next attempt was the early-90's and that also fizzled.

So I am sure that what is modern TTRPG is vastly different than what I was trying to engage with. And honestly I probably don't have the patience for really long games anyway - I totally understand the appeal in terms of the concept and it should be something I'd like, which is why I get intrigued by it now and then (like this one), but in practice it doesn't click.

That's fair. And as much as TTRPGers love TTRPGs, we also have to admit that the hobby itself just isn't for everyone. There's plenty of things that I should like in theory but, in fact, do not.

But also what you're describing is what a lot of people still in the hobby describe. There was a LOT of fizzling out in the '70s to early '80s because it did take some level of deep fascination with the idea and commitment to make it work in order to actually have fun with it and consistently even get to play.
Also, as much as YouTube DMs will say anyone can be a DM - that's really only partly true. Some people are genuinely just not cut out for it. And, no shade to that person, if that's who you get trying to run things for you while you're learning, you're not gonna have a good time.

I generally tend to think that most people that exist within the nerdy spaces like this would enjoy TTRPGs under the right circumstances. But that's not ALWAYS true, and even if true it still requires finding those right circumstances. And if someone is already kinda only peripherally interested, then they're not going to go out to look for those circumstances. And why should they?

But it's like...okay like WENDY'S seemed to have put more effort into their 5e game than this. (Wendy's 5e was a fucking riot, I think I still have a copy of their free download somewhere. You could tell the team who wrote it loved it.) That's what's bugging me. It reminds me of something over in my author life - people will try go get in on the hot new genre without reading, understanding, respecting, and honestly loving that genre and not understand why it doesn't connect with new readers. Or they'll think their take is better than anyone else's because they don't engage with the genre in a meaningful way. This feels like that. It's a space with a strong community and very specific desires, and the KS feels like they just blundered into a party thinking they don't have to learn anyone's names. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

That's why I keep calling them carpet baggers. They just showed up in a space they aren't from and have no relationship with, and in fact don't even give a fuck about, just so they could siphon money out of it.

 

[secondwhiteline]

Also, as much as YouTube DMs will say anyone can be a DM - that's really only partly true. Some people are genuinely just not cut out for it. And, no shade to that person, if that's who you get trying to run things for you while you're learning, you're not gonna have a good time.

Wildly true. Like, two friends in my regular board game group also DM. Friend A is an incredibly creative person who's good enough at voice acting to make a regular side hustle out of it. Friend B is a total wizard at game rules and an dedicated min-maxer. If I told you that only one of these guys is good at DMing, which would you guess? I feel like most people would say the creative performer. But no!

Because Friend A's sessions are a one-man performance by Friend A. And he's a talented performer but the game's not supposed to be about that, so you're just stuck absorbing his largely non-interactive novel while he does his voices.

But Friend B's had the same D&D group going for like 10 years, and every time I've seen him DM it seems obvious that it's because he holds a lot of space for the players to explore and guide the tone of things. And he's a very ego-free guy so his interest in rules sets turns to providing fun challenges and puzzles for his players, where a more selfish rules-oriented DM would use that to compete with the players.

And I've got enough inherent love of TTRPGs that a bad session with a bad DM isn't going to turn me away from the hobby, but I started playing when I was a kid. An adult with limited free time doesn't have the time to keep trying at something if their first experiences with it are unfun.

 

[Poe Ghostal]

Wildly true. Like, two friends in my regular board game group also DM. Friend A is an incredibly creative person who's good enough at voice acting to make a regular side hustle out of it. Friend B is a total wizard at game rules and an dedicated min-maxer.

Hmm. I've been thinking about running a game for some newbies and I am...neither of those things. I don't have a great head for math (particularly probability) or game rules, and even as a player I get self-conscious about roleplaying. So this is probably a terrible idea now that I think of it. Maybe we should just play HeroQuest.

 

[Aggroninja]

Adding that onboarding new players is hard and sometimes it's just easier to get someone into TTRPGs with a system you're comfortable with. I now have an easier time teaching 5e than I do Vaesen even though Vaesen is infinitely simpler.

And truly can't underestimate brand recognition. I've bought games for players I know they love - Fallout, Dune, fucking Star Trek which I'm not even that into, bought it FOR THEM - and nine times out of ten they'd rather do D&D because it's familiar. "How does Star Trek become D&D?" Well, it's completely different and suddenly the table turns into Will:

Dnd Stranger Things GIF - Dnd Stranger things - Discover & Share GIFs

Click to view the GIF

tenor.com

As a long time TTRPG player, it's always been a big frustration of mine just how many gamers out there seem outright frightened of expanding their horizons outside of D&D. I got started on Metzker red box D&D basic, went to AD&D 1e, and played 2e for a bit before I decided I didn't really like that system all that much - and fortunately my gaming friends were happy to come along with me outside the D&D comfort zone. We played LOADS of West End's Star Wars at first and then Deadlands, while dabbling in Call of Cthulhu, Palladium's TMNT, TSR's Marvel Super Heroes, Shadowrun, and Paranoia. We eventually wrote our own RPGs and even got as far as having a booth at a couple of GenCons (Revelation, War Machine, and Doom City, though I'd be stunned if anyone's heard of them now).

There really was a gaming renaissance in the late 90s when TSR was struggling where D&D's stranglehold on the TTRPG player base was a bit weaker and lots of other games were seeing play.

Then came WotC and 3e, and suddenly every game wanted to use the OGL/D20 license. Our games got shelved, we played some Spycraft, and then it's been largely D&D from then to now, from the end of 3.5 through 4e into 5e.

Even a guy like me who really likes other TTRPG games finds himself playing lots of D&D, and it seems like nowadays it's almost worse with a broader audience coming into the hobby - they treat other games like these unknowable horrors that will suck all the fun from their game nights. It'd be weird like board gamers who only ever wanted to play one board game, but somehow in the TTRPG space its different.

 

[TheSameIdiot]

Also, as much as YouTube DMs will say anyone can be a DM - that's really only partly true.

I've played under six DMs, and I'm a fairly experienced DM myself. I think anyone can do it, but it requires the ability to learn, make changes on the fly, and, most importantly, read social situations. Some people do not and cannot possess those skills. As SWL mentioned, ego is a huge factor. If your players only exist to listen to your novel or see your performance of D&D in the Park, it's going to be a bad time.

Hmm. I've been thinking about running a game for some newbies and I am...neither of those things. I don't have a great head for math (particularly probability) or game rules, and even as a player I get self-conscious about roleplaying

I don't think you have to be.

Games like Cairn, Mausritter, or anything in the Powered by the Apocalypse system have simple, small rulebooks. Pop over to the TTRPG thread, and we can give you specific recommendations based on your players and setting.

RPG math is often "Is 9+3 greater than or equal to 14?"

Role play comes with time. It's also important to surround yourself with a group you can be vulnerable with.

We played LOADS of West End's Star Wars at first and then Deadlands, while dabbling in Call of Cthulhu, Palladium's TMNT, TSR's Marvel Super Heroes, Shadowrun, and Paranoia.

Pop over to the TTRPG thread and tell me about your experience with Paranoia.

 

[JakeEkiss]

Hmm. I've been thinking about running a game for some newbies and I am...neither of those things. I don't have a great head for math (particularly probability) or game rules, and even as a player I get self-conscious about roleplaying. So this is probably a terrible idea now that I think of it. Maybe we should just play HeroQuest.

Don't rule yourself out. I was an art major for a reason and though I *occassionally* do a voice here and there, that is at most 5% of the total stuff I'm doing at a table when I run. Despite that, I still have a waiting list for my games and am the primary DM for most of the people I play with (@docsilence's game notwithstanding). You can be a great DM without either of those talents. Enthusiasm, a sense of fairness and drama, and a feel for your players will take you as far or farther than any system wizardry or acting chops.

At the very least, give it a try for a few sessions. If you don't dig it, absolutely don't torture yourself, but trust that great DMs come in all flavors.

Even a guy like me who really likes other TTRPG games finds himself playing lots of D&D, and it seems like nowadays it's almost worse with a broader audience coming into the hobby - they treat other games like these unknowable horrors that will suck all the fun from their game nights. It'd be weird like board gamers who only ever wanted to play one board game, but somehow in the TTRPG space its different.

I really, truly believe it's because many people, especially folks getting into the hobby in the last 8 years, come in on D&D and it is just not a fun system to learn. Spell slots and spell levels are counter-intuitive. There are traps in character building where you can make mechanically terrible characters without realizing it, and even things like your stats are numbers that, most of the time, have no actual bearing ont he game, they're just an index by which you get your bonuses.

And like, learning D&D takes so much effort that folks are just terrified they'll have to do that again. But many games, I dare say most, are easier to learn and more straightforward. Some of it is just people don't like any discomfort at all, so they won't try anything new, but I do think D&D specifically makes the problem worse.

That said, if my group wants to game and they aren't willing to DM, that means I'm driving the car and I'm going to pick the music. I try to pick stuff I think they'll be into, but I'm not spending the rest of my days as a DM only playing D&D. We're gonna branch out just for my entertainment.