Continuing my MCU rewatch

[AceofKnaves]

but after that long, it just feels so selfish.

Yep.

 

[fac]

I don't know about "more" chaos, but definitely a lot of chaos. I feel like that "five year later" tag caused more headaches than the immediate shock value was worth.

Well, people die all the time, and it is easier to scale down than to scale up - so I think the Blip would have been of course emotionally devastating and would have required a ton of adjustment - but what to do with all the people that reappeared after folks had moved on would have been more chaotic I think? Especially as they didn't know they were gone.

But I agree, if it was only 3 months later would have been better, but that of course wouldn't have allowed for Tony to have a daughter, which they wanted to play on. Less complications.

Yep.

I think if I hadn't been blipped and had adjusted to the new world, that I'd nevertheless be pretty happy if half of my friends/family who had been murdered by a psychopath were given a new chance to live out their lives naturally. Much more selfish to say "Eh, I've gotten used to having the house to myself".

 

[Fletch]

but what to do with all the people that reappeared after folks had moved on would have been more chaotic

You make a convincing argument. I haven't really tried to imagine what the world logistics would be like in the aftermath of the Snap OR the Blip, but I can at least assume the world at the Snap was able to handle 4 billion people easier than the post-Blip world could handle 8.

I'd nevertheless be pretty happy if half of my friends/family who had been murdered by a psychopath were given a new chance to live out their lives naturally

And that's exactly what I mean by selfish. You're not doing it because your missing friends are sad, you're doing it because you are.

I think after 5 years, the responsible thing is to take the L and just press on. Especially when you consider how close Thanos came to erasing ALL life in the universe thanks to the Avengers meddling.

 

[Fletch]

Loki (season 1)

Although not the first MCU project I had to force myself to finish (that was Agent Carter), it's worth noting that I still had to force myself to finish it. The first couple episodes were pretty good, but it had trouble keeping my interest past that. It was only six episodes long, though, so it wasn't a huge challenge.

1. Not really a fault of the show, but initial trailers with that D.B. Cooper sequence (and some of the background Easter eggs seen in the President Loki bit) made me think this was going to be about the TVA chasing Loki through time and exploring all the hijinks, alternate identities, and urban myths he'd been up to over his long life. Since the Cooper scene ultimately had nothing to do with any of the actual plot, a part of me wonders if maybe that had been an early draft plan before they decided to use this series to kick off the Multiverse.
   
   
2. Having said that, though, I really like the idea of this time travel buddy cop mystery series. The chemistry between Loki and Mobius is really great. They had really great banter that kept their distinctive voices. Mobius felt like the in-charge bureaucrat he was, and Loki felt like the put-upon demigod he was.
   
   
3. I have two minds about Loki's redemption status here. The first is that we'd seen all his character growth, from backstabbing troublemaker to loyal brother, so he was ready to take his place as a hero. The other mind is that this isn't actually that Loki, and charming antagonist Loki was probably him at his most popular. Only speaking for myself, I felt like the compressed character arc just from watching the film strip was really rushed.
   
   
4. The series took a real dive for me, though, when they basically replaced Mobius with Sylvie in the buddy cop formula. Since they never really convinced me of what Loki's plan was (if any), it really became Sylvie's story with Loki following along, and you know how I feel about side characters taking control of a show from the title characters. Just generally frustrating that she's the one doing all the important stuff; revealing TVA agents are variants, destroying the Time Keepers, killing He Who Remains. All that stuff, all her. As a side note, I think it's strange that they opted to name-drop the Earth-born Enchantress Sylvie from the comics, rather than the Asgardian Enchantress Amora. Horizontal media synergy, I guess.
   
   
5. I remember being really mad at the part where they just have a bunch of Infinity Stones in a desk drawer. "That last saga you just watched? Not a big deal. We literally use them as paper weights." Better just leave the tesseract behind in the Gobi Desert to get pruned with the rest of the timeline. Then you don't have to address them at all.
   
   
6. The scene that really sold me on this premise was Loki deducing that the variant was hiding in apocalypses. Ever buddy cop movie needs some detective work, and they nailed it. Mind you, two episodes later they disproved the theory by having them generate a nexus point in an apocalypse anyways, soooo....
   
   
7. I found the action scenes pretty tepid. The fights were your standard Marvel choreo, and nobody seemed like they were actually trying to hurt each other. Just doing fight moves until one went down. Also, the one-shot during the moon crash was just them running around until they got right back where they started. And while I'm at it, I got so tired of Loki whipping his hair back. You could make a drinking game out of it, but you'd die of alcohol poisoning.

No surprises here. The stuff I liked before I still like, but I didn't find new appreciation in the stuff I hadn't. I might've been feeling a little Loki fatigue at this point, but I'm not 100% sure this story even needed Loki to start with (as a general premise, I mean.)

 

[fac]

And that's exactly what I mean by selfish. You're not doing it because your missing friends are sad, you're doing it because you are.

Not was I was saying actually, I was trying to say that while I might have moved on and would be inconvenienced by the impact of the return disrupting things, that those folks deserved a chance to live their lives out, and if you could give that back to them, it would be the right thing to do.

 

[fac]

Although not the first MCU project I had to force myself to finish (that was Agent Carter)

Really? I liked the Agent Carter series quite a bit.

Not really a fault of the show, but initial trailers with that D.B. Cooper sequence (and some of the background Easter eggs seen in the President Loki bit) made me think this was going to be about the TVA chasing Loki through time and exploring all the hijinks, alternate identities, and urban myths he'd been up to over his long life.

That would have been fun, I agree.

I have two minds about Loki's redemption status here.

I think it is hard to tell with Loki what damage he actively caused, but he never came across as the cruel, murderous bad guy that was beyond redemption. I take some of it as being that he realized what has was missing (or hadn't appreciated) from his life once he got to the TVA.

I remember being really mad at the part where they just have a bunch of Infinity Stones in a desk drawer.

I liked that - if you view the TVA as something of an afterlife analogy, that was more of the "that power stuff you craved isn't important anymore in this realm" moment.

I thought the overall show was pretty clever - even if the cliffhanger doesn't really get addresses, which is a shame.

 

[Fletch]

Really? I liked the Agent Carter series quite a bit.

I liked some of it. The early Red Room stuff, fer instance. I don't remember much else about it, though. I mostly remember long gaps between viewings because I wasn't really that interested.

but he never came across as the cruel, murderous bad guy that was beyond redemption.

My favorite Loki bit was when Thor forced him to look at the destruction he was causing in New York. Some great face acting that showed he didn't want to be the bad guy. That, of course, was right before he lured Thor in for a punch dagger to the kidney. And Mobius even highlighted how he seemed to enjoy the pain and chaos when he took that dudes eye in Germany.

So he was definitely walking that line in his middle appearances before relearning loyalty to family and Asgard. This series kept saying he couldn't be trusted, but aside from that one pointless bit at the Ren Faire, I don't think he ever tried betraying anyone.

even if the cliffhanger doesn't really get addresses

I haven't actually seen season two yet, you mean the Kang statues and them not knowing who he is? Because I thought the death of HWA is what kicked of the multiverse this Saga is based on.

 

[Schizm]

Are you going to go immediately into S2 or wait to watch it chronologically? S2 redeemed S1 for me, because I was so disappointed in Loki S1.

A, the TVA looks amazing but the whole idea of it is so offputting and haphazard and is not a value add to the MCU (Deadpool helped). B, this Loki does nothing Loki-like. He's not lying, manipulating, plotting - as you said, he's along for Mobius's and then Sylvie's ride. LOVE Tom Hiddleston and he's doing a bang-up job with what he's given but he's given so little. He's not clever and he just needs a hair tie.

I also thought the premise of this was a buddy-timecop show and then that was jettisoned at the end of episode 2 - episode 2!! Granted, we were learning that Marvel TV shows aren't really TV shows but just long movies, but I still feel that was a complete waste. Trading Owen Wilson for Sylvie? No thanks.

Also, Sylvie should have had black hair. Nothing about her suggests she's at all "a Loki" - a phrase I came to hate.

Moving the apocalypse ending rescue into the next episode killed that episode, not to mention all the running in circles. It's all so pedestrian in a show about a trickster god.

And ugh, jumping on the table as a climax. Hated it then, hate it now.

 

[Fletch]

Are you going to go immediately into S2 or wait to watch it chronologically?

I'll be watching them in release order. I did consider watching in chrono order at the start, but was more interested in recreating the viewing experience. I did sneak in an early watching of Black Widow after Civil War, though. Didn't have the impact I was thinking it would.

the TVA looks amazing

The TVA *does* look amazing. That 50s soulless bureaucracy really worked for me.

Sylvie should have had black hair.

AND the alligator too!

I'm kidding, but I'm sure they felt really clever for finding a way to bring in the Enchantress. It just boggles me that they hid her behind the name of some teen replacement Enchantress from, like, 2010 rather than THE Enchantress.

Maybe they thought there was still a chance to use Amora down the line?

 

[Fletch]

My ideal version of Loki (season 1) only requires a single change, but it's a bit of a doozy. What if Sylvie just simply doesn't exist? Like, at all. Instead, it's Loki who is the main driver of his own series.

It would basically boil down to this:

• Loki gets caught and put on trial for time crimes, but his escape is way more effective than originally depicted, leading to a few episodes worth of "Catch Me If You Can" style adventures between him and Mobius. It's during this time that he figures out how he can hide in apocalypses while his desire to see the TVA taken down grows.
  
  
• It's through his own magics and run-ins with Mobius that he discovers all the TVA agents are actually variants. This leads them to team up during their buddy cop phase, where they fake Mobius' capture of Loki in order to sneak back into the TVA, outwit Renslayer, and unmask the Time Keepers.
  
  
• Ultimately, it's Loki alone who makes it to He Who Remains (after a fun adventure with Kid Loki and Richard E. Grant*). He's starting to be swayed by his spiel, but in the end chooses free will, killing HWR himself and unleashing the multiverse.

This whole thing puts Loki right at the forefront of his own story. He's not just following behind Mobius or Sylvie as they try to reach their goals. He's the effing God of Mischief. He's bold yet elusive while Mobius is experienced and determined.

He often says the desire for freedom is a lie, but coming face to face with the organization that disproves free will has shown him how valuable it really is.


* I thought it'd be fun to make a Midgard Serpent parallel with Alioth, but I can't actually think of any actual myths or comic storylines that would work.

 

[fac]

My ideal version of Loki (season 1) only requires a single change, but it's a bit of a doozy. What if Sylvie just simply doesn't exist? Like, at all. Instead, it's Loki who is the main driver of his own series.

Interesting - I think Loki seeing Sylvie (and other variants) be so focused and different actually helped our Loki build to the character he becomes at the end, so he needed a Sylvie to be his somewhat infuriating companion, the way our Loki is to Thor, in that she couldn't get past her own goals for the bigger picture? Maybe?

 

[Schizm]

Totally down for that version of the show, Fletch. That sounds like what I wanted to be watching instead of Loki going dumb and falling for a version of himself even though that person is 63% less charismatic.

It also sets up the end of S2 better if Loki is the one actually doing... anything.

If Sylvie was just her own character he meets on the journey that could have been cool but again, unnecessary.

 

[Fletch]

I think Loki seeing Sylvie (and other variants) be so focused and different actually helped our Loki build to the character he becomes at the end

What do you see as his character at the end?

I never really got a good grasp of what his goals were through the series or how they might have changed at the end. He would occasionally say that he wanted to take over the TVA, but it never sounded sincere. Like, he was saying what he thought people expected him to say, because he was trying to cover up that seeing his own death changed him. It feels like something that's interpretive, though, some I'm interested if you had a different impression.

Rewatching it, I was surprised at how *Loki* he was in the first episode, because all my memories are of him being kind of passive for the rest of the show.

 

[Fletch]

It also sets up the end of S2 better if Loki is the one actually doing... anything.

That's a relief. I'd seen images of him on his vine throne, and had been wondering if that contradicts my idea of him refusing HWR's offer here. Glad to hear they align a little better.

And in general glad you like the alternate pitch. I was debating if I would continue posting them.

 

[fac]

What do you see as his character at the end?

I am referring more to his character at the end of season 2, I am not really (in this discussion) distinguishing between season 1 and 2 in terms of his arc, and think many of your comments get addressed.