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Yes, I’m absolutely fine with this approach. It’s the “it’s over and we won’t do it again” thing I object to.



Agreed, but as a “yes and” to the higher-profile characters, not “instead of”. Like I’m honestly not interested in a Marvel Universe without Doom/Steve/Peter/Banner etc, just as I am not interested in a DC Universe without Bruce/Clark/Diana/Joker/Lex . . . they don’t always have to be “out front” but I need them to be there existing.

Like I actually *prefer* the “tone” of the MCU post-Endgame, the only thing I’m missing is the presence of the marquee characters I love. I dearly wish they would just reboot already, with a less militant and cynically mean tone overall.
I think largely the problem with rebooting now, and obviously we're seeing how this is likely to work for the foreseeable future, is it doesn't matter if the universe moves on or not. Reboots, just keeps going, whatever. They will keep trotting out the old actors until they die or physically can't do the role, and when that won't work we'll get creepy deepfakes instead.

Nothing will change in any substantial way because the folks making the real calls (not the line runners, the suits) have no imagination of their own and they are terrified by any idea that cannot be sold to them as a sure thing. They're so deathly afraid of the future, which is a real shame because due to their immense wealth they'll actually get to see more of it than most people.
 
So use the movies to dig into the catalogue and shine a spotlight.
Again, fully agree.

The reason Marvel even chose to make Avengers movies is because they'd already sold off the rights to their actually popular characters. The whole brand is built on bottom shelf heroes.

In general, I found that the Avengers got satisfying conclusions to their stories in Endgame and was ready to move on. I have a suspicion that if they'd treated She-Hulk, Shang-Chi and Thunderbolts as Big Damn Heroes instead of niche themes that don't intrude on their big names, audiences would've taken to them.
 
I think the distinction with "recasting" is that the MCU has dozens of characters now, in various stages of story arc, as part of an overarching story - so when they have a good end to a character (Tony, Steve, Natasha) I think that trumps having the character exist forever within the MCU. I believe the overall story of MCU phase 1 to 3 was ultimately better because those characters had endings.

Examples - MASH was better because when McLean Stevenson and Larry Linville wanted out - they could have recast but instead pivoted to different characters and new interactions. Same with hundreds of TV shows where the cast morphs over time. People point to Bond as "recast at will", but they changed tone for each of the main 5 actors (Moore not immediately but it got a bit more campy), and I don't think anyone really feels like they are watching something in continuity by the time they get to Brosnan as really the same person as Connery - and the first Bond film was 63 years ago...

I am sure there will be Cap and Iron Man films in the future, with different actors - just outside the MCU. Its only been 6 years since Endgame, give it some time, there will be new Cap and IM adventures on film.

As for Boseman, I think his young age and circumstances of his death made it harder to recast within the MCU. I think deciding to change actors because it isn't working well, or an actor not being available, or a contract runs out - those are business decisions - but recasting a recently dead younger man is more of an emotional decision - and we have to remember that the director and cast and others actually knew him as a person. Even when they recast Thunderbolt Ross, it was a bit different given Hurt was 71 compared to Boseman at 43.
 
I think that trumps having the character exist forever within the MCU. I believe the overall story of MCU phase 1 to 3 was ultimately better because those characters had endings.
Agreed.
but recasting a recently dead younger man is more of an emotional decision - and we have to remember that the director and cast and others actually knew him as a person.
And also, there is no Marvel character before him that had as much immediate cultural impact. Like, whatever anyone thinks about superheroes on film (or the specific films in question), Black Panther and Wonder Woman meant something to people in a way few superhero movies ever will again. And Chadwick's death was especially pointed because it was so sudden and because he hadn't lived long enough to disappoint anyone. His story will be frozen in this state of "taken too soon".
 
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@fac I completely agree with all of that. And funny that you mention MASH because all the examples I thought of are shows as well, which is more applicable than something like the Batman movies. Rebooting one guy is one thing but recasting major characters amongst a sea of characters doesn't seem as appealing unless it's a full reboot, which I still assume secret wars will lead into.

But you have stuff like Cheers where one actor died and another left, both yielded new characters rather than recast. Then something like Greys Anatomy which I admit I have watched but not in years, but it's been going for what, 20 years? With maybe three of the original cast still left? Constantly rotating in new main characters that get embraced and loved until it's time to rotate them out again. Or dragged by a bus for several blocks and killed off.
 
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I believe the overall story of MCU phase 1 to 3 was ultimately better because those characters had endings.
I guess I’d feel better about it if I felt like their stories were actually *finished*, instead of just “ended”. Just personal opinion, but none of those endings felt organic or complete to me: rather, they felt like moves made to compensate for actors leaving the roles or to add a “big death” to a story climax.
I mean Iron Man never fought any of his arch enemies, Steve only had one bout with the Red Skull, Black Widow’s biggest actual story notes were “flashbacks” after her onscreen death, a death that served no purpose beyond emotional manipulation and a reach for a “climax”. Aaaaaand also all those “endings” would feel more final and impactful if it was *actually* the end of the story. Like if Endgame was the actual end of the MCU, I think I could play it off like the end of The Dark Knight Rises: “ok, *that* version of the story is over, on to the next version”. But with the MCU, we are in this weird limbo where they are sort-of finally moving away from the “Avengers as kill-soldiers in BMX gear” ethos of the Infinity Saga, but with huge holes in the various rosters. I’m MORE than fine with leaving *this version* of Iron Man dead (but that’s personal and because I fucking hate him), I don’t need any surprise resurrections. But it’s time to move on to a kinder, gentler, and especially less murderous and less quippy, version of these characters and stories.
 
And funny that you mention MASH because all the examples I thought of are shows as well
I feel like we need to view the MCU as a long running TV show at this point. There is continuity but characters come and go.

I guess I’d feel better about it if I felt like their stories were actually *finished*, instead of just “ended”. Just personal opinion, but none of those endings felt organic or complete to me: rather, they felt like moves made to compensate for actors leaving the roles or to add a “big death” to a story climax.
I think IM making the ultimate sacrifice after not understanding why someone would when he looked at Steve early in the series, to me finished his story. I know you don't like the characterization so I doubt that meant much to you, which is fine.

Similarly I think Cap making the more selfish decision to be with Peggy (after already making the ultimate sacrifice - yet surviving it) after probably thinking less of IM for not having that sense of duty, to me also finished his story.

I think Natasha's story was that she never felt she could get the red off her ledger and knew that even though Clint was traumatized by losing his family, she was willing to do it for him and for her. That to me finished her story in a way that was true to the character.

I am not enough of an IM or Cap or Avengers reader to care who they faced along the way, within the narrative of the MCU, this all worked for me - much better than for instance dragging Kirk or Luke, Han and Leia back into the fold just to show them die. I would have been fine with all of them living happily ever after, as I am with Cap probably doing the same.

I have come to view the "heroes in a constant fight until it finally kills them" to be a terrible thing in current storytelling. I like the endings where the finale rewards the struggle with a better future, not just a break until the next threat starts. Its why I viscerally dislike the decisions with the SW ST, or bringing Ripley back until she dies, and so on. The framing sequence in Saving Private Ryan gets this right I feel as real world-ish example of this - in real life we don't want Private Ryan to reenlist and go fight in Korea and then as a 50 year old fight in Vietnam until he has a heroic death. That might have been too heavy of a connection - but it is why I don't want to think of a 60 year old Peter Parker web swinging around Manhattan getting in fights...
 
I think the nature of Hollywood filmmaking more or less guarantees there will be big things that never make it from page to screen in comic book movies. There's not enough time, too many moving parts, and not enough skilled people making decisions to get even half of it through. I think Tony, taken as an adaptation, has probably the most complete arc in the MCU, tied with Steve. There's still big stuff left undone, but not stuff missed from the comics, rather stuff they set up in the films and never delivered on. Neither character gets any good development in their love interests, for example.

All of their romantic milestones happen off screen or not at all. Steve manages to dodge how bad his is because his initial story is about losing a love at the end and they round it out by giving her back to him in Endgame. For Tony it's worse because all you ever see of his relationship with Pepper are the "boring" moments. No wedding, no pregnancy, no falling in love really. Just the day-to-day grind between those moments. Just the moments where Pepper is exasperated by this guy who is either too selfish to notice her or too suicidal to care for her.

Black Widow there's no defending. Hers is completely busted front to back. Just awful. Since we basically never see any of the bad things she did, it's hard to feel like her ending rights any particular wrongs she's committed. At least Tony we start with him as a warmongering shithead, and we see through his characterization how much of a nightmare he must've been the whole time. Even when he tuns over a new leaf he's still a shit for a long time.

Thor is ok, I guess. He largely had his closure in Taika's first movie and then they roll him back a bit.

Hulk it's like they kept assuming one day they'd give him a movie, and because of that all of his best moments, like Pepper and Tony's, have happened off screen. He's dead in the water and they need to cut bait. Same with Hawkeye.
 
I am not enough of an IM or Cap or Avengers reader to care who they faced along the way
That would probably be the primary differentiating factor.

I go to comic book movies to see my favorite characters/stories brought to life. And in general I always go back to the primary sources of any character as my launch point. I love many Dracula movies, but the original novel is the foundation, always. And I’m sure I’m gonna love Nolan’s The Odyssey, but the whole reason I want to see it is to see one of my favorite epic poems adapted into live action. The source material will *always* set my expectations for the stories and characters I love.
And I *love* Marvel. So much.

Also: I honestly don’t think any hero is any damn good without their villains. Personal thing, perhaps, but I *need* the villains. The lack of strong, consistent, eye-to-eye conflict with villains (large building threat on the horizon notwithstanding) is my biggest complaint about the MCU, even bigger than asshole-Stark. The world felt *empty*, and the Avengers felt like some kind of special-forces hit-squad that assembled semi-annually to kill HYDRA goons, but mostly just bullied other and were fucking jerks to each other, BUT rarely ever actually FOUGHT CRIME. And YES, hero-on-hero conflict is engaging and certainly part of the foundation of Marvel storytelling, but often that felt like the ONLY significant conflict in the MCU. It felt like the whole universe never really formed in a holistic way. It never felt like there was a whole world of colorful heroes and villains all milling about and getting in each others’ way, and that is like the lifeblood of Marvel to me.
 
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Since we basically never see any of the bad things she did, it's hard to feel like her ending rights any particular wrongs she's committed.
I didn't think that mattered we never saw it - what mattered is that she regretted, like Bucky, her past, and really was never going to get over that. Which is why I harp on the deleted ending to the BW film, where she sees the girl playing her as a hero with the rest of the Avengers - that was what she needed to see.
That would probably be the primary differentiating factor.

I go to comic book movies to see my favorite characters/stories brought to life. And in general I always go back to the primary sources of any character as my launch point.
Fair enough, I guess for comics I don't expect a true adaptation, so I am fine with seeing their take on the character in much the same way I am fine when a new creative teams takes over a comic book - I either like it or I don't. As long as it stays within the general lines of the story I probably will like it - or maybe I feel after X years of Byrne FF I have read all the FF I need to read and move on.

I suspect some of my "not needing an adaptation" is because comics like films are a visual medium, so I have already seen the Dark Phoenix saga, which is different than having already read the Wizard of Oz, so the film version is not giving me a visual that I only had in my imagination previously, but competing with the original visuals. And apart from broad strokes, most comic book characterization is pretty straightforward and not having a lot of depth - some but not a lot - so I often enter with less of sense of the characterization apart from some of the biggest names. I read plenty of comics with Black Widow over the years but not really sure I could describe her personality from that, if that make sense, compared to a more detailed profile of Peter Parker.

Also: I honestly don’t think any hero is any damn good without their villains... BUT rarely ever actually FOUGHT CRIME.
Yeah, comic book films have moved too far into the "stop some crazy supervillain from destroying everything" that I am not sure what the Avengers might do with their time when the Earth wasn't about the wiped from existence. I would have fully embraced seeing IM using the armor to stop a skyscraper fire and collapse, or more of Cap stopping Hydra from trying to arm terrorists or experiment on innocent people, or Natasha trying to rescue some kidnapped children, or whatever.
 
as part of an overarching story
I tried to say this but couldn't summarize it as well. Once they decided to make a cinematic universe, building up to a huge finale, they locked in *these* portrayals of the main characters.

Obviously allowing for replacements for general douchery like scuttlebutt describes Terrence Howard and Edward Norton's behavior. For the record, I would not have recast Thunderbolt Ross.

I guess I’d feel better about it if I felt like their stories were actually *finished*, instead of just “ended”.
Different strokes, obviously, but I think most of the original Avengers at least got the finale they deserved. Tony learned how to make the final sacrifice (again), Steve got to come home from the war, and Thor was released from his duty to the throne (again).

I personally found Natasha's sacrifice fitting for the character's stated goals, but I've debated that a lot with the missus so I know it might be an uncommon view. Never seeing her put red in her ledger was definitely an anchor to appreciating her final choice.

The only main character whose conclusion I didn't like was Bruce, and that's mostly because it occurred off-screen.
 
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I don't expect a true adaptation
I mean I guess I don’t either (I love Batman Returns, which is a phenomenal piece of cinematic art but a terrible adaptation of Batman comics), but ultimately most of the things I personally would want and value as the core of a Marvel adaptation just weren’t present in the MCU. It still feels weird that a Marvel thing could be created that so fundamentally lacks the things that I love specifically about Marvel, buuuuuuut on the other hand I’m definitely hip to the fact that much of the world, and certainly c-suite executives, do NOT value what I value in these stories.
 
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For me it wasn't so much taking it as a serious part of the MCU, I just didn't find it that good. Third bite at the apple to not make his love interest an actual character, a bunch of low-hanging meta-jokes, some jabs at popular things... meh. It just felt like bad fanfic to me (qualifier there is important, I've seen plenty of good fanfic). The only parts of the movie that stuck with me are Jackman's raging at him when they're in the car and the post credits of Evans slagging Casandra Nova. Both I think basically only stuck with me because Jackman tries hard not to phone it in and Evans is funny when he plays a dickbag. I guess I'm happy for Tatum getting to do a run at Gambit since he wanted it so bad... but also that just felt like Tatum doing Gambit cosplay to me so...

I keep trying to engage with Deadpool because I remember liking him a lot in some of those late 90's comics, but I think that time has passed and actually I just don't like the character much now. That's on me and I should take my own advice and not watch any more presuming they get made.

I think it was 'good' in the popcorn goofiness kind of way. It's not something I feel like I have to care about, but I don't mind watching silly music while Wolverine tears his way through a pile of alternate reality Deadpools. And honestly, I'm not too jaded yet to not be a little hit by things like Wolverine wearing the costume because he failed the X-Men and it's the last thing he can do to honor them. But it's not a film I went into expecting The Feels and it's certainly not one that I want to be tied to with future movies. It's okay for it to just be a dumb one-off with a couple of characters people like and want to see cross over, even if it never really made any sense with the cinematic world we had.

Deadpool has worn thin with me as well, though. I like the Deadpool movies. But I've even found I stopped reading his comic appearances because I just don't care anymore. He's so over-saturated and not interesting enough to be so.

But for comic book characters? I absolutely, categorically do NOT want their stories to “end”. Nope, nope, nope. ALWAYS RECAST. A bajillion writers, artists, editors, actors, etc have created these characters over nearly a century. I think it is absurd and insane to yoke Iron Man, for example, to one particular actor and/or “kill” the character when said actor is “done”.

I think the larger problem is tying the entire fate of every character and every possible story arc into one cinematic continuity. We have several distinct (until recently) Spider-Man continuities where we got to explore different parts of the Spider-Man lore. Why can't we have that again? Why does Tony Stark in movie-form always have to be the RDJ version (re-cast or not)? Can we get a cinematic Iron Man story where he never fought Thanos at all? Can we get a Thor story not bound by everything that's cannonically happened to the Chris Hemsworth version of the character?

To me, when we talk about not recasting, that's kind of what I'm talking about. I don't need them to feel like this version of the character is the only one we can have and so we have to decide to kill it or recast it. Don't do either. Make a whole new one. The Tony Stark of the MCU can be dead without the idea of Tony Stark ever being in a movie again also being dead.

I'm tired of the idea that Marvel can't produce anything on film or television that isn't part of 'the multiverse.' In my opinion the best Batman movie ever came out at the same time as, but entirely separate from, the ongoing DC cinematic universe. Why can't Marvel do that too. OR.. why can't we choose an END to the current MCU and start completely over with new stories and new directions?

I think the distinction with "recasting" is that the MCU has dozens of characters now, in various stages of story arc, as part of an overarching story - so when they have a good end to a character (Tony, Steve, Natasha) I think that trumps having the character exist forever within the MCU. I believe the overall story of MCU phase 1 to 3 was ultimately better because those characters had endings.
Yes, this.
 
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Mmmmmm that part won’t work for me.

I need *excellent* actors, every time, for every role. Talent and ability will absolutely always beat out “looking like the character” to me: that is what costumes, makeup, and preparation time are for.

Actually a major reason I don’t favor certain genres of film (like action movies, for example) is because other attributes are prioritized over talent and ability. Now “talent and ability” is not a monolithic metric: different skillsets are necessary for different roles. But I never, EVER want to sacrifice acting ability for “looks”. Not ever. Start with excellent actors who ALSO possess the necessary skillsets for the role, and go from there. But I require great acting, always.
Fair, and I don't at all disagree- talent first, always. My point was mostly that, instead of picking from the same pool of A, B, C, etc. list actors, why not go for the other folks you wouldn't normally think of for the role. I only mentioned looks because there are those out there that would complain if someone looked nothing like so-and-so. There are so many talented performers- dancers, acrobats, wrestlers, voice actors, mocap actors, etc. that embody characters in ways that your traditional Hollywood actor may not. Hell, half the time, they are the character, and the big name just comes in after the fact and says some lines in a booth (not to discredit that at all- voice acting is an art form in and of itself). But they get written off or not considered because they're X thing instead. The filmmakers realizing what they had in front of them is how we got Doug Jones, and Andy Serkis, and I'm sure many other big names too. I'd rather a complete unknown get cast in some of these roles over some of the big faces, because as much as I do like a lot of them, they often just play themselves, and it's hard not to see them in the role.

It's so interesting to me how some franchises like Batman, Bond, etc. recognize the importance of recasting and ensuring your character stays alive and fresh, whereas other companies are so afraid to recast that they'll fling an old man around on wires until the day he dies (and, the way things are going, probably use his likeness for the rest of time). And sure, those characters are the title characters, but let's be real- isn't Wolverine? Isn't Luke? Aren't half the MCU characters? Obviously the whole "who's the best" discussions are draining in and of themselves, but they're kinda fun too- the fact that a character has persisted long enough to survive multiple decades and interpretations, as they often deserve to. And honestly, in some cases, these roles deserve to rest. You can connect a universe with more than just the marquee characters. Having Dr. Evazan and Ponda Baba in Rogue One was a fun little easter egg and more than enough connective tissue for me (not saying I didn't like all the other bits- they rocked too). I don't need to see the Joker or Harley Quinn shoehorned into every project. But we have this fixation with the big names and the big characters, and it's exhausting sometimes. I feel like the studios still treat their audiences stupidly, and because audiences are treated stupidly, they don't ever really care to connect in a deeper way.
 
For the record, I would not have recast Thunderbolt Ross.
I wouldn't have either. Ross in the MCU was not used as a Hulk nemesis for years, that him becoming a Hulk was not a thing to me. They had other options there, including doing more with Ritson from Secret Invasion.
 
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